What an odd thing to be neg repped over. It wasn't me! And I enjoyed your contribution. I'd never heard anything about any of the plays (this IS the library after all). I know there's a TV movie about the case (starring Elizabeth Montgomery from Bewitched as Lizzie - apparently it shows her committing the murders in the nude).

yeh thats what i thought, i didn't think it was you hun. the plays called blood relations (very fitting title) not heard of the movie, would like to see it though

Ahaha...

I believe Lizzie is guilty!

OMG HOW HORRIBLE!!!!!!!

http://www.geocities.com/neil404bc/crime.htm

human nature never ceases to horrify me. What a horrible cause. It's pure evil. Yes, the sisters had a very difficult background and they were sick but there's an element of simply being evil. They apparently showed no remorse. And Lea went on to have a regular life. That's unfathomable to me, I can't even imagine it.

I was reading a review of Sister My Sister and it said how they lived "inprisoned". They only had each other. Of course, being totally introverted and cut off from the world is hardly and excuse for killing someone, but there was a time in my life in wich I literally didn't have a social life and I hardly left the house. It was just me and my brother. In fact, we we so cut off from the world and in a bubble we shared an OCD. It's sick. Of course I didn't become a serial killer and I grew out of it, I have a very active social life now, but I now that being lonely can take its toll and drive you insane. And if on top of that you have a traumatizing background, well a person can beomce really unstable. But there is evil in those sisters. I don't think it can be blamed solely on their mental illnesess/unfortunate situation. Some people are intrinsicaly evil.

I think that Lizzie must've had this type of life too, like jailed in her house. It rots your soul.

Oh dear! I had never before seen crime scene photos showing the victims of the Papin sisters. That guy should put up a warning on his website, instead of just a dumb message saying "NEW PIX OF THE PAPIN SISTERS - CLICK HERE." I admit I'd have been too curious not to have a glance even if there HAD been a warning, but I'd have liked to have been prepared.

I've seen other crime scene photos, like those of Lizzie's parents and the victims of Jack the Ripper (the worst one I've ever seen is the photo of Mary Kelly, Jack the Ripper's last victim). But you can take a lot of comfort in remembering that according to the experts, both then and now, all these poor people died very, very quickly - the images are ghastly. But the injuries were almost entirely post-mortem.
Not so the victims of Christine and Lea Papin. I don't want to think about it.
I don't believe in the death penalty under any circumstances, but it's very unfair to think that had Christine Papin just so happened to be a Christopher Papin, she'd have been beheaded.

And yes, I know how you feel, my dear. There have been times in my life when I've been too cooped up, living a very insular existence. I'm much better now than I used to be, but at home I still often have my mother and stepfather around. It can at times be extremely oppressive as they are by no means easy people to live with. They're so awfully loud and argumentative, and they thrive on verbal sparring, whereas I'm quiet and retiring. Still, I am always sensitive to the fact that they put up with ME too, and I know my mother finds my quiet nature and unwillingness to argue annoying (in her words, "passive aggressive").
Fortunately for her and my stepfather [!], no matter how much they bug me, I'd never harm them physically. Or wish physical harm upon them. The lowest I've ever gotten is to behave self-destructively, doing stupid things to myself (in one way or another) but without consciously feeling suicidal.

I'm sure that on some level, my own life experience makes the subject of Lizzie Borden intriguing. There are people who argue against the stereotypical perception of her life as having been terrible, repressed or even insular. People point out that she taught Sunday school and was a very active and involved member of her community. She was a leading figure in many women's organizations at the time and championed numerous causes - the rights of non-English speaking immigrants, the poor, the underprivileged. She absolutely adored animals and left much of her fortune to various animal welfare organizations.

Nonetheless, if you go back to the existing "primary documents" (most of which I found on the "Famous Trials" website) you get a painfully vivid and detailed portrait of two crucial days of Lizzie's life in the Borden household. August 3rd and the day of the murders, August 4th, 1892. By all accounts, including her own, she spent most but not all of August 3rd locked alone in her bedroom ignoring everyone and everything. On August 4th she was in the house performing monotonous, boring household chores or else she was loitering alone, doing nothing, out of sight of everyone. The only person she appeared willing to speak to was her maid, Bridget Sullivan. If even part of Lizzie's version of events is true (which it patently was not), she was somebody completely avoiding reality (but then, I'd have avoided it too, her reality sounded so abysmal).

Hold that thought! I'll write one more post on this than try to stop whoring my own thread.

omg I didn't see the pcitures of the victims, I only saw the first page. Are that ghastly???? worst than the Mary Kelly one???? is it worse than the pictures of the wife of sheppard???? if the answer is yes I won't be able to see it.

The pics of the Papin sisters victims aren't as ghastly as the photo of Mary Kelly, no (I've never seen the pic of Sheppard's wife). But for me Mary Kelly's crime scene pic is only more ghastly in the sense of the post-mortem mutilations making it EXTREMELY gory. The murders committed by the Papin sisters are more horrific to me since the victims would have died slow, agonizing, torturous deaths. And you can see from the crime scene pics how the injuries were almost entirely inflicted upon the faces of their victims - I mean, it's like the author descibes: the victims faces are just "bloody pulps", unrecognizable. I shouldn't think they would have bled to death or lost consciousness from blood loss all that quickly.

The crime scene pics of Abby and Andrew Borden are grotesque too - but mysterious. There's amazingly little blood to see. Granted they're very old, black and white photos, but you can't make out blood anywhere where you'd expect it. Abby Borden was hit 18 times with the axe, Andrew Borden was hit 11 times. Abby is shown crouched down next to a bed with a white quilt covering. You can't see a speck of blood on this bed covering - right next to the poor woman's body. Andrew was found lying dead on a couch. You'd expect the floor to be awash with blood, but you can clearly make out the pattern on the carpet. It's very strange, almost as if both bodies were moved.

Some criminologists theorize that Lizzy Borden was extremely lucky - Andrew and Abby didn't bleed much since in both cases, they were mercifully killed from a single blow. The killer continued raining down blows onto the heads of the Bordens', but the second their hearts stopped pumping, blood would not have flown in copious quantities, nor would it have "spurted" everywhere, the way you'd imagine ... considering they were attacked with an axe/hatchet.

Lizzie could have washed any blood off her body easily by going out to the barn, since the barn had running water. I'm not sure how she got it off her clothing, but numerous witnesses stated that a fire was blazing in the kitchen, right after the murders. Lizzie or Bridget or both of them together could have disposed of bloodstained clothing thattaway. You'd think a blazing fire would have been a red flag to the police, but in 1892 there was simply nothing odd about a blazing fire in a kitchen. If Lizzie (or Bridget) didn't burn bloodstained clothing before the police arrived, Lizzie's alleged period was all the excuse either one needed afterward. Indeed various bloody rags and "bundles" were disposed of that day, right under the noses of the police.

I like how you write. And yes I've seen the borden pictures, and yes they are weird. The Sheppard one is kinda similar, she's on a bed. Mary Kelly's is horrifying. We should make a thread about the Reaper.

How did the papin murders actually happened???? I mean they must have tied up the victims or something, I mean what happened exactly?

I really like the way you write too, sweetie. And yes, we should!

Um, let's see. Ages ago I bought a cheap paperback from a second hand bookstore, with a chapter on the Papins - it's around this house somewhere, though I'm not sure exactly where. It included the prosecutions opening statement, describing what the sisters did and how. They include some of this at the end of 'Sister, My Sister' - a very good film btw. I know I've praised it already - but I really can't recommend it enough. Julie Walters plays the formidable (and doomed) mother, and she's absolutely briliant.

The prosecutor described how one of the victims eyes was found on the staircase. In addition, teeth and even 'bone fragments' were scattered around the room. And the whole crime scene showed signs of a terrifying struggle. The victims, Madame Lancelin and her adult ('spinster') daughter, Mademoiselle Genevieve, were NOT tied up. One or both of them probably tried escaping by running out the front door (well you would, wouldn't you?) but as soon as police broke the door down, their bodies were lying right before them, in plain view.

Christine Papin, the elder sister, apparently did the eye gouging, using her bare hands. Apparently this is - or was - a criminal precedent, unheard of in the recorded annals of err ... violent crime. (Doing such a thing with hands alone.)
She attacked the mother first. At some point Lea Papin joined in. 'Sister, My Sister' - which from what I've read, is a fairly accurate depiction of the case - shows the daughter attempting to help her mother, as Christine starts the attack. Lea rushes to help too - unfortunately, she only wants to help Christine. (This scene is gruesome, but not gratuitous. It tastefully - and mercifully - suggests most of the violence without showing too much on-screen.)

At some point, the sisters began attacking/mutilating the victims with the aid of a heavy iron pot, a hammer and a knife. Don't ask me how they pulled out teeth and removed bones. We can only hope that the mother and daughter were dead by then. Lea's one statement during their trial was that she used a knife to make deep slashes found around the 'inner thigh region' of the daughter, Genevieve, because "That is where the secret of life is".
Ugh. Whatever.

lizzie was considered "legally insane" at the trial.

i haven't read this whole thread yet, but once i was watching something on lizzie borden and they suggested that lizzie may have been molested my her father, there is a good enough motive.

i've never heard of this before, that she was caught burning a bloody dress

may i ask who is mary kelly?!

She's the last victim of Jack The Reaper. That we know of.

horrifying. I don't think they were alive during all the mutilation, I guess they must've been knocked out quite quickly and maybe quickly bled to death? who knows.

Are you sure? Who considered her "legally insane"? People who knew her spoke quite a lot about her having weird "spells" from time to time and I know psychiatrists have made much out of this.
But at her trial?

wanted to subscribe.

I have been fascinated by the Lizzie Borden case for years, but I have never been able to come up with a conclusion. All points seem to appear that she was the murderer, but then there are so many things that say she isnt as well.
Its frustrating.