well yeah that is something I just noticed. Well I didn'ty just noticed it, I noticed it when I read The Alienist.

I know it's a given that that's how it's going to end and the only duifferent thing is the players, but I find it to be boring.

No, I meant what I quoted - he's not inventing his own genre, he's updating an old one.

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you lost me.

HCH - there IS something fundamental that you are missing.


no matter what anyone tries to tell you there IS only ONE way to tell a story. it may appear somewhat differently depending on genre, linear or non linear forms, and of course on author. books can also seem different from movies, and from tv. but it is still there.

if you need something to read get joseph campbell's - the hero's journey. its an old old book, but in it is the basic trajectory of every single story. the greeks, shakespear, to bill and ted's excellent adventure. name me any movie that isnt un chien d'andalou and i can tell you ever single of the 12 steps, in order, of the hero's journey. there is no writer who doesn't know it up and down. everyone doesn't follow this because they feel like being conformists....they do it because it is the most natural way. the only thing that readers/ viewers ever want from a story is a. TO CARE about what happens to the hero, b. to see him CHANGE over the course of the story, and c. TO BE SATISFIED in some way that a viable and complete conclusion has occured on some level at the end of the story.


sure, ellroy or anyone else could have the dectetives abandon the mystery midway, go get stoned and eat cheetos, then see on tv months later that someone else caught the guy. no confrontation. but that would NOT be a story. no one in their right mind would be satisfied. no one would even publish something like that in the first place. everything at the end has to jive with what he has been setting up since the beginning.


there are only so many storylines that exist. this is a fact. originality lies in twists on circumstances, settings, political/ societal/ messages contained in the themes, personal character profiles, and of course personal author voice. and each and every single one of these is a 'hero's journey' as described by joseph campbell. (he did not invent it by the way, only put a name to the most natural pattern of all viable story telling.)


so what i'm saying is, you need to get over your fear of 'formula'. trust me, there IS a formula, and you dont even know it, but if there wasnt one, you would not be able to follow the story. there would be no story. it would be a random series of events one right after the other. not connected, not going anywhere, not complete. you'd HATe it.
if all you ever do is search for the formula you will never ever appreciate storytelling. you just need to try and see the INDIVIDUALITY within the basic strokes of the formula.

I know this. You are talking about the turning point and the antagonist and the protagonist and the climax and the resolution, I know all that shabbang and it's the only to tell a story, it's true, but that's not what I'm talking about.

If I read To The Lighthouse by Virgina Woolf and then I read The Alienist, both are going to have these techniques of climax and all because that's what they are, techniques, it's the LANGUAGE to tell a story, beyond words, to say something, got it. But that doesn't mean they are the same. They are completely different.

But if I read three different crime novels and they all end with the hero confronting the killer and then killing the killer, I mean that is like the formula beyond the formula. It's like completely contrived.

I mean it's like James Bond movies. it's the same bullshit over and over and over and over. Obvisouly if you compare a James Bond movie to let's say The Others, they both have all the "steps" but you can't say the others is rehased bullshit.

I mean does my point come across¿?? I don't think so.

What are some choice books that you've read, HCH? (BTW, I skipped all of this thread having not seen the movie or read the book yet, so hush about that!)

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I mean ahving crime novels end the same is not different strokes within the formula, it's just being unoriginal.

well the last book I read that I loved was Without A Doubt by Marcia Clark.

I enjoyed Confessions of an Economic Hitman until I got bored.

I'm reading on and off a volume of the diaries of Anais Nin.

Tried to read to the lighthouse, I couldn't.

And I'm going to read next Antonia Fraser's marie antoinette book.

I wouldn't mind picking up Marie Antoinette. I'm usually into the non-fiction though. Not by conscious decision, I just end up buying it.

And is it just me or does every other movie have its own book?

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"the height of arrogance is the height of control of those who create God in their own image"

I too prefer non fiction, life is more interesting. If I'm going to see fiction, I'd rather then see movie.

Yes, they all seem to be books.

What have you been reading?

at this point i mean to correct myself : the name of campbell's book is 'hero with a thousand faces', which outlines the hero's journey.


you're right its does include protag, antag, climax, resolution, but in facts it is much more detailed than that.




i'll post it as a resource, in case anyone is interested, since this is the libraray forum. this has some of the old language, using fruedian concepts as symbols to illustrate the steps. there are more 'user friendly' ways the steps have been described. the 'goddess' and 'whale' stuff is obviously not literal. some more modeern versions have distilled it to 12 steps total, but its basically the same thing.

PART ONE: The Adventure of the Hero.

Chapter I: Departure

* 1. The Call to Adventure

The adventure begins with the hero receiving a call to action, such as a threat to the peace of the community, or the hero simply falls into or blunders into it. The call is often announced to the hero by another character who acts as a "herald". The herald, often represented as dark or terrifying and judged evil by the world, may call the character to adventure simply by the crisis of his appearance.

* 2. Refusal of the Call

In some stories, the hero initially refuses the call to adventure. When this happens, the hero may suffer somehow, and may eventually choose to answer, or may continue to decline the call.

* 3. Supernatural Aid

After the hero has accepted the call, he encounters a protective figure (often elderly) who provides special tools and advice for the adventure ahead, such as an amulet or a weapon.

* 4. The Crossing of the First Threshold

The hero must cross the threshold between the world he is familiar with and that which he is not. Often this involves facing a "threshold guardian", an entity that works to keep all within the protective confines of the world but must be encountered in order to enter the new zone of experience.

* 5. The Belly of the Whale

The hero, rather than passing a threshold, passes into the new zone by means of rebirth. Appearing to have died by being swallowed or having their flesh scattered, the hero is transformed and becomes ready for the adventure ahead.

Chapter II: Initiation.

* 1. The Road of Trials

Once past the threshold, the hero encounters a dream landscape of ambiguous and fluid forms. The hero is challenged to survive a succession of obstacles and, in so doing, amplifies his consciousness. The hero is helped covertly by the supernatural helper or may discover a benign power supporting him in his passage.

* 2. The Meeting with the Goddess

The ultimate trial is often represented as a marriage between the hero and a queenlike, or mother-like figure. This represents the hero's mastery of life (represented by the feminine) as well as the totality of what can be known. When the hero is female, this becomes a male figure.

* 3. Woman as the Temptress

His awareness expanded, the hero may fixate on the disunity between truth and his subjective outlook, inherently tainted by the flesh. This is often represented with revulsion or rejection of a female figure.

* 4. Atonement with the Father

The hero reconciles the tyrant and merciful aspects of the father-like authority figure to understand himself as well as this figure.

* 5. Apotheosis

The hero's ego is disintegrated in a breakthrough expansion of consciousness. Quite frequently the hero's idea of reality is changed; the hero may find an ability to do new things or to see a larger point of view, allowing the hero to sacrifice himself.

* 6. The Ultimate Boon

The hero is now ready to obtain that which he has set out, an item or new awareness that, once he returns, will benefit the society that he has left.


Chapter III: Return

* 1. Refusal of the Return

Having found bliss and enlightenment in the other world, the hero may not want to return to the ordinary world to bestow the boon onto his fellow man.

* 2. The Magic Flight

When the boon's acquirement (or the hero's return to the world) comes against opposition, a chase or pursuit may ensue before the hero returns.

* 3. Rescue from Without

The hero may need to be rescued by forces from the ordinary world. This may be because the hero has refused to return or because he is successfully blocked from returning with the boon. The hero loses his ego.

* 4. The Crossing of the Return Threshold

The hero returns to the world of common day and must accept it as real.

* 5. Master of the Two Worlds

Because of the boon or due to his experience, the hero may now perceive both the divine and human worlds.

* 6. Freedom to Live

The hero bestows the boon to his fellow man.

2012: The Return of Quetzlcoatl by Daniel Pinchbeck, all abut the world state of affairs, covers much of everything on everyone's tongue today. It's pretty interesting, worth a read.

And The Portable Nietzsche, if you're looking to get into deep-rooted philosophy this is the way to start.

I want to start reading American Psycho again. I don't remember much of it.

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"the height of arrogance is the height of control of those who create God in their own image"

Yeah, but who cares? It's like saying if you listen to three Madonna songs, and they all have a verse, a chorus and another verse, there's no point listening to any more because they're all contrived. The thing is, nobody listens to a song just to see if there will be a chorus. That's expected. It's what's done with the chorus that matters.

You can make the assumption the hero will confront and kill the killer in the end, and still have a lot of reasons to read the book. Are you really starting these books in doubt about whether or not the hero will prevail?

It's more about the identity of the killer. How does the killer kill? What about the characters close to the hero?? Will they live?

Yeah, it was so great how The Alienist ended in such a totally different way....except for the fact that the heros confronted the killer who then immediately died. The Alienist (which I loved) pretty much hits every cliche of the modern crime novel, on purpose. The special thing about it was that it is set at virtually the very beginning of the modern crime era, so that all the cliches, fingerprinting and childhood trauma and so on, were relatively unheard of and something only mavericks would do. Caar (or is it Carr?) is a respected historian, and he's quite good with the time period.

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I think a more realistic approach to story telling would be more simple, like the character, the turning point, the confict, the climax, and the resolution.

It's not something that rigid.

this is what it's always the same and never changes. Why is the killer always a physical deformed freak?? it's completely repetitive and contrived.

And the Madonna example sucks. What I feel reading crime novels is the same as hearing three supossedly different songs but have the same lyrics.

well thenovel was written in the 1990's so I don't think what's so special about it. It sticks to the cliches just like every crime novel, that's why I personally believe is an unoriginal and contrived genre.