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08-20-2008, 11:51 AM
|  | whirling dervisher | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Spin me
Posts: 1,963
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophiel  I think you misread skepticism here. There's a world of difference between doubting the existence of something that is neither proven nor evidenced in any way that cannot be explained, and being the cold, closed-minded rationalist you seem to imagine.
What you don't seem to understand is that most skeptics would love to be proved wrong. I find that interesting because, by contrast, most NON-skeptics are so terrified of being proved wrong that they'll believe anything in order to prevent it.
I'd consider the possibility of ESP, remote viewing, mind-reading etc. until it was disproven. But I wouldn't consider myself gullible or stupid for not being in the believers' club at the point when it is proven, just as, if I put money on a hundred-to-one-on horse and lost the bet, I wouldn't get angry or insist that it was a fix. I'm not a cold rationalist, I'm just not so determined never to be proved wrong that I'll believe anything just because it might be true. I think that's probably true of most skeptics, that they simply doubt evidence that is over-stated, or question theories that present causes which seem to have little to do with effects. You seem to have this idea that you can use shame and cajoling in place of evidence, making a skeptic out to be cold and inhuman for not believing what you feel he should, rather than presenting reasons why he should believe. If mind-reading can't be replicated or predicted, honestly, why should anyone accept it without experiencing it for themselves? What use is it to them to believe?
I like, though, that you say "members of the scientific community". What is that, the "scientific community"? | "Scientific community"--researchers who follow guidelines defined as the "scientific method" of inquiry.
I am not arguing against rationalism or skepticism; I believe, as you do, that a skeptic will be the first to be awakened when experience demonstrates the existence of the occult.
Cold and inhuman usually results in a blockage to, and denial of the self; lives are damaged and fear creates a false facade of linear thinking and concretization of reality. The imaginal mind is a gateway to mental balancing and wholeness. Limited, extreme thinking is ALWAYS an out of balance condition.
__________________
Marerophilia:
A depth of love that youth can seldom appreciate or communicate;
A love that never can die for it is a wild seed living inside us, and it is what it is;
Love: that which bonds the reality of one's being to the mystery of the unknown;
Wildflowers: evidence revealed."
~~carefulcarpenter
Last edited by Sophia_ : 08-20-2008 at 11:57 AM.
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08-20-2008, 11:56 AM
|  | pioneering new emotions | | Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: nTown, UK
Posts: 4,541
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia_ "Scientific community"--researchers who follow guidelines defined as the "scientific method" of inquiry. | Really? Because last I heard, the scientific community (rather than a few fringe weirdos who come up with very "interpretable" results) was indeed studying ESP and such, but not yielding results that were particularly conclusive or even persuasive. Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia_ I am not arguing against rationalism or skepticism; I believe, as you do, that a skeptic will be the first to be awakened when experience demonstrates the existence of the occult. | Nuh-uh. Because you also strongly suggested that, because someone is a skeptic, they would not be able to experience such things. You think they're missing out on something simply by being skeptical. |
08-20-2008, 12:09 PM
| | whirling dervisher | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Spin me
Posts: 1,963
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophiel Really? Because last I heard, the scientific community (rather than a few fringe weirdos who come up with very "interpretable" results) was indeed studying ESP and such, but not yielding results that were particularly conclusive or even persuasive.
Nuh-uh. Because you also strongly suggested that, because someone is a skeptic, they would not be able to experience such things. You think they're missing out on something simply by being skeptical. | Except for this last post I don't believe I've said much about skeptics. I'm a part-time skeptic myself.  If you remember, I said I was an engineering student for 10 quarters.
As a poet I have met many physicists and other scientists who are very open to the spiritual world( outside of their scientific domain and public denial). Read more by Einstein, for one example. I guess the term "mystery" to the rational mind mean "facts not discovered yet" ?
__________________
Marerophilia:
A depth of love that youth can seldom appreciate or communicate;
A love that never can die for it is a wild seed living inside us, and it is what it is;
Love: that which bonds the reality of one's being to the mystery of the unknown;
Wildflowers: evidence revealed."
~~carefulcarpenter |
08-20-2008, 12:10 PM
|  | pawking metaws | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: vivian comma close
Posts: 9,428
| | | imagination is far more important in science, initially, than the scientific method. the great scientific discoveries don't tend to be linear, but complete shifts in understanding. the scientific method is about verifying and testing whether what has been imagined is the truth.
einstein dreams up general relativity, an incredible imaginative and utterly non-linear feat. a consequence of his theory is that the sun will bend light rays from distant stars behind it. so others set off to find a solar eclipse and find that the otherwise invisible stars close to the sun appear to have shifted from their correct positions. the theory is proven and einstein is shown to have imagined the truth. truth never seen before.
imagination is the hammer, scientific method the anvil.
but without the scientific method you can imagine bollocks alongside truth and no one knows what to believe. your hammer is useless as it strikes against air.
Last edited by kesh : 08-20-2008 at 12:17 PM.
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08-20-2008, 12:36 PM
|  | Strafe Guru Narcissists ! | | Join Date: May 2007 Location: On the Redwood Hwy
Posts: 311
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia_ The last time I was there---they were back! Well, in a wildflower sorta way, anyway.
I can show you empirical evidence of mind reading done by researchers in the scientific community, but the evidence would still be at the mercy of your interpretation and willingness to test the theory yourself; all of which would result in you sticking to a skeptical pov and expecting me to prove to your satisfaction that mind reading is like a scientific theory--predictable or otherwise invalid. If love is God, and you don't experience either on a predictable schedule (like routine sex), then I guess we remain at a standstill.
Ms G., for example, is a valuable friend and advisor in my life, yet from your view all forms of love HAVE to involve sex and suspicion. Wasn't her presence in the Coffee Emporium worthy evidence that I have never consciously lied to women? Truth pays dividends, but is also accompanied with pain. It's not easy to let go of someone, even though you know it is the best thing for them--and the worst thing for you. Then the universe pays you a dividend. Accidentally amputate a few fingers and the universe pays a dividend. Save the lives of a few strangers and the universe pays dividends. Reach out to help the lonely and feel the pain of rejection--then the universe pays you dividends. Help heal the world and become whole yourself-- these are the dividends from investing yourself in the service to others. The credit is marginal, but the benefits are huge!
It's nothing I can prove to you. You win.  Sophia_
"Wildflowers survive where soils are harsh; avoiding alligator shoes and careless hearts"
~~cc | Soph_, are you over-reacting just a tad bit here ? All that was requested was just for you to give one of your personal anecdotal examples of one time showing that you were able to 'mind read'. Most open minded skeptics of anything paranormal, that I know, have enough interest and desire for more understanding to genuinely evaluate your example on its own merits. I've gone through life being interested in stories of the paranormal and have some of my own good stories as well.
You don't need to defend your whole self known view of yourself because you were asked to give one example of being able to read minds as you've claimed quite a few times on KR.
__________________
Sophy_'s Motto of His Spousal Invalubility: "My wife does not want to loose [sic] the house--I imagine she would get along fine with out me, for she is an attractive woman who could easily find someone to be her companion. As a man, I do the things for her she can't find in another woman." ~~carefulcarpnetter |
08-20-2008, 01:03 PM
| | pawking metaws | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: vivian comma close
Posts: 9,428
| | | examples are cold and inhuman, they damage lives and create a false façade of linear thinking and concretization of reality |
08-20-2008, 01:16 PM
| | pioneering new emotions | | Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: nTown, UK
Posts: 4,541
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia_ Except for this last post I don't believe I've said much about skeptics. I'm a part-time skeptic myself. If you remember, I said I was an engineering student for 10 quarters.
As a poet I have met many physicists and other scientists who are very open to the spiritual world( outside of their scientific domain and public denial). Read more by Einstein, for one example. I guess the term "mystery" to the rational mind mean "facts not discovered yet" ? | And here was me thinking you could go fully ten posts without claiming Einstein as an ally  Quote: |
Originally Posted by kesh but without the scientific method you can imagine bollocks alongside truth and no one knows what to believe. | "No one" might be a bit of an exaggeration. But yeah, a fair few will believe it. Sophia_'s always had this craziness/genius thing arse backwards. |
08-20-2008, 01:45 PM
|  | standing on the beach.... | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: six feet under
Posts: 11,319
| | don't eat yellow snow. 
__________________ the power of negative thinking |
08-20-2008, 04:19 PM
| | whirling dervisher | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Spin me
Posts: 1,963
| | | "You want me to measure the summer breeze with a 12" ruler; the speed of a shooting star in meters; and the sweet fragrance of wildflower dew in liters; How else can I show you what love is?"
~~carefulcarpenter
__________________
Marerophilia:
A depth of love that youth can seldom appreciate or communicate;
A love that never can die for it is a wild seed living inside us, and it is what it is;
Love: that which bonds the reality of one's being to the mystery of the unknown;
Wildflowers: evidence revealed."
~~carefulcarpenter |
08-20-2008, 04:21 PM
| | pioneering new emotions | | Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: nTown, UK
Posts: 4,541
| | | I'd ask if it was supposed to be funny that you've picked the three most horrendously clichéd signifiers of romance to chide someone for lacking an intuitive understanding of love. But I know you'd just duck the question or lie. |
08-21-2008, 02:06 AM
| | whirling dervisher | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Spin me
Posts: 1,963
| | | "Man has built a magnificent forest of thought; And the children climb the trees and play; La Di Da La Di Day"
~~carefulcarpenter
__________________
Marerophilia:
A depth of love that youth can seldom appreciate or communicate;
A love that never can die for it is a wild seed living inside us, and it is what it is;
Love: that which bonds the reality of one's being to the mystery of the unknown;
Wildflowers: evidence revealed."
~~carefulcarpenter |
08-21-2008, 06:09 AM
|  | Phil Goff | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Westport, New Zealand
Posts: 18,382
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia_ "Man has built a magnificent forest of thought; And the children climb the trees and play; La Di Da La Di Day"
~~carefulcarpenter | You're ducking the question and lying? No?
__________________
Time is the distance that you can't return by miles.
I escaped somehow. Let's go
actualy [sic] I have quite a blessed life if I'm honest. I have many people to love, hate few and have few money problem's [sic].... What more does a person need? Oh yeah and I have some kind of humbleness unlike you of course ^_^ ~ CarefulCarpenter |
08-21-2008, 06:53 AM
| | pioneering new emotions | | Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: nTown, UK
Posts: 4,541
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