Shadows and projections

Sophia_ · #1 05-07-2008, 11:18 PM

Thought we might look at the subject of "Some very nice young people are too polite to ask you to leave them alone."

Quote:

Too Good to be True

We’ve all met people who seem too sticky and gooey. They are “too nice” and sickeningly sweet. We sense that they are somehow being fake when we are around them and we feel we never really know them. They are, as the saying goes, “too good to be true.” These people are barricaded behind their mask or persona. They will deliberately avoid any kind of negative reaction or emotion. They refuse to be real and suffer the acceptance of their own dark side and this can be a dangerous thing. We are better off knowing about our dark side because as Jung put it “Whatever one does not live, lives against one.”

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rancheria

I also see these same Sophy_ problems in person at the Coffee Emporium. For example, about two weeks ago you were a big nuisance to a friend of ours, J., who was babysitting a barista's 4 month old son. You found another captive audience at the Coffee Emporium, and she was too nice to tell you to screw off. However, if you see her again, she will definitely avoid you, like she did the second time you came in. Now, why would she feel uncomfortable with you and your monologue for her? Well, because you made her uncomfortable with your talk and your assumptions that she was pro-choice and a supporter of abortions. You saw how much she loved her friend's son whom she was babysitting, and you encouraged her to have a baby. You were trying to make a case against abortion, which is fine, however, your lack of sensitivity and major boundary crossing issues, and assumption that she somehow needed to hear this from you, a perfect old guy A-hole stranger, someone who didn't know her and had to be stuck listening to your monologe encouraging her to have a baby was inappropriate. Your Radio Todd assumptions and evangelical methods to somebody who was a captive audience, babysitting for a barista, were not appreciated, by the barista mother, the babysitter, me, and the owners.

Some very nice young people are too polite to ask you to leave them alone. You had her cornered in the corner of the shop. It was the exact same type of behaviour that started the young crew on the patio wondering how to get you to go away last spring in the Coffee Emporium. That was successful and they got the message across to you. So please don't prey on new young people at the Coffee Emporium. Nobody comes there to hear your spiritual/political/evangelical New Age sermons or Radio Programs. A person at the Tea House/Coffee Shop doesn't come there to have you bother them. Did you realize that another woman left early because of having to hear your monologue program directed at the babysitter. She got tired of it, and wasn't even the recipient of your sermon. Remember, it is a very small space. Do you want to be banned there as well ???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rancheria

And as far as your pestiness and nuisance-ness with J., the babysitter, she told me first hand that you overdid it with her and mentioned your inappropriateness to me directly, as did her friend the Barista Mom. The second time you were present when she was too, she kept away from you and stayed in the back where I was. She asked me what was up with you. I had to honestly tell her that it hadn't been determined as of yet. And that you've burdened many many people, and derailed a hundred internet threads in trying to explain yourself, but no definitive labels could be applied to your condition. She looked a little perplexed and sort of scared and said that Once was more than enough of your schtik for her.

I would like to learn more about this. I can often look like the "nice guy" and then may not see my own shadow. This "J" may have projected something onto me unfairly and then Rancheria used that to cause me some discomfort. I accept that I may not have realized that such a "nice" person couldn't detach from a conversation, but then again, how would I know if she continues t be a "nice" person. I would suggest it has more to do with two people with very little in common trying to relate to things outside of our experience. I have two children but I am not a woman, so what do you suggest I do to relate to young women in a way that gives them space and also helps me look as good as Rancheria by holding babies and such.

I can always sit quietly until the opportunity comes along to smile and tell young women how cute their babies look. Then go back to quietly reading and smiling--you know--looking and acting like "a really nice person".

Sophia_ · #2 05-08-2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rancheria

Now, why would she feel uncomfortable with you and your monologue for her? Well, because you made her uncomfortable with your talk and your assumptions that she was pro-choice and a supporter of abortions. You saw how much she loved her friend's son whom she was babysitting, and you encouraged her to have a baby. You were trying to make a case against abortion, which is fine, however, your lack of sensitivity and major boundary crossing issues, and assumption that she somehow needed to hear this from you, a perfect old guy A-hole stranger, someone who didn't know her and had to be stuck listening to your monologe encouraging her to have a baby was inappropriate. Your Radio Todd assumptions and evangelical methods to somebody who was a captive audience, babysitting for a barista, were not appreciated, by the barista mother, the babysitter, me, and the owners.

This is a total distortion of the truth, by you, or "J". I never suggested anything about her having a baby; especially NOT related to abortion or pro-life. I supported the idea that she was able to give her time and love to a friend's baby. What a wonderful way to be part of the village that raises a child. I don't remember abortion ever being a topic of debate for me. I may have expressed some minor points in support of children, but in no way have I ever "cornered someone in a captive way and preached about abortion. You can distort all you want but you cannot provide any evidence of what you falsely accuse me of. I have avoided abortion issues here at KR. I once lead people to a discussion about rape "Let's get specific about rape" in order to understand the uncontested belief that abortion should be acceptable if a woman has been raped. I thought rape can also be a man's issue as well as a father's right to have the baby come into the world. Rape is a vague concept when you consider some situations where people have dated a few times before a pregnancy. It can be a justification for decisions totally erroneous to the premise that rape means the baby will not be loved or wanted. "J" is an example of the blessing that comes from something even as negatively portrayed as rape is. Historically rape may have been an element that strengthened the human genetic fabric of humanity. As we have heard inbreeding can be problematic to Natural Selection.

I believe this comment by Paladin may be the crux of any real position I have. Other comments could have been to provoke discussion only--like cheese comparisons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin

Is this unfair to expect people make a more informed decision before they repeat habitually the use of abortion as a social acceptable method of birth control...?

I don't believe that abortion should be a substitute for self-responsibility. There are many, many other topics that require self-responsible citizenry in a democratic society. I would say most people love babies, so I would hope a woman would take some time before engaging in unprotected sex, if abortion is their easy solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

You'd have to twist the truth along way to convince me that I was engaging in a discussion or preaching to "J" about abortion vs choice.

"encouraged her to have a baby." I probably said the opposite of this, if I said anything about having babies. I am more likely to suggest that a career-minded woman like "J" not have children and instead be a great aunt. I'm assuming from what she said that a career is more important to her than having her own baby. I think taking care of "Taco" has induced some female instinct and she is now troubled with self-doubt. I did not intend to excite any such hormones in her myself.

"major boundary crossing issues" -- yes, I know, I get too close with people and invade their ego-boundaries. I must learn to detach myself better from my intimate nature with strangers. I forget they are much more suspicious and protective of their ego-identity than I have been almost most of my life. I find vulnerability and intimacy a treasured aspect to my humanness. I appreciate your input about this trait. I guess these human frailties of mine can cause others discomfort--not my intention, but I take it as sound advice to stay my distance from people who have not shown indications of trust in fellow humans. I live in a different reality, and have paid the dues for it. I guess I will pay more to demonstrate that humans are not always to be mistrusted.

Governmento · #3 05-10-2008, 12:47 AM

I am confused are you haveing a conversation with yourself.. Or justifying your position.

Personally I just leave women alone till they get to know me. And they are willing to speak about what is going on with them.. I don't just start contoversial conversations with people who I hardly know. And don't expect people to do that with me. Sometimes getting to know and trust people takes time.

Major Pain

Governmento · #4 05-10-2008, 12:54 AM

PS.. I heard some of those regular customers returned to the coffee emporium yesterday. You were holding court. One man said he opened the door, he saw you and left.. So who is running the regulars off.!

Actually he said you were there with some other victims.

Hey if you are trying to start a thread with Rancheria. You may have to wait he is out of the country.. In the wilderness. So you may have to wait for an inteligent answer to your thoughts.

I think Jesus went to the wilderness for enlightenment

bort · #5 05-10-2008, 01:10 AM

Basically, this is another thread about yourself, Sophe. You don't really exist on this messageboard, you just don't interact. You are kind of parallel to it.

Sophia_ · #6 05-10-2008, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Governmento

PS.. I heard some of those regular customers returned to the coffee emporium yesterday. You were holding court. One man said he opened the door, he saw you and left.. So who is running the regulars off.!

Actually he said you were there with some other victims.

Hey if you are trying to start a thread with Rancheria. You may have to wait he is out of the country.. In the wilderness. So you may have to wait for an inteligent answer to your thoughts.

I think Jesus went to the wilderness for enlightenment

Yes, I was there on Thursday and had a wonderful conversation with two regulars! The place was almost dead before I came in around 9:30am What's up?. I haven't been so well received as that day by one of the pacifists. Men understand the world a bit better, especially those who have been managers or self-employed.

The barista working was talking to another woman and I was ignored as a customer for a few minutes as they talked. I am patient and just waited. The barista is the one whose baby "Taco" has been babysat during her working hours. The two ladies were talking about not having drivers licenses or cars for that matter, and how great it is to not have one for financial and ecological reasons. Buses were discussed. Now, trying to warm up to women that are that extreme is a chore for any middle-aged man whose customers are very demanding. It is a challenge, but I will try the best I can. Thanks for the heads-up. I know how tough it is to engage people in philosophy--especially about "taking care of oneself", in a socialist-minded community. What I am referring to is "taking care of your soul"; I'm not sure if young socialists are even into having a soul, let alone taking responsibility for it themselves.

The wilderness is essential to self-discovery. Happy to know the jackalope is running free in these beautiful spring days. Did you know I live on the ridge of a hill over-looking at a county semi-wilderness preserve? You could come up some time and throw some squash and corn on the grill and I'll make sure I have a 6-pack in the refrigerator for you. Wilderness in my backyard--Moosehead in the frig. (We do have running water and electricity).

As a matter of great importance to spiritual growth --facing the shadow is the path to enlightenment on the individual level, and planetary survival on the other. Not everyone wants to go this route, although I believe life on Earth without war requires self-examination on a large scale. The brightest pearl may lay hidden deep below the shiny surface in the depths of muck and mire; awaiting discovery by those brave souls who have the courage to face the Great White Shark of the unknown.

"In Wildness is the preservation of the world"
~~John Muir

You can always email me privately at john_muir@mac.com.
John Muir took a 1000 mile walk across America and discovered himself; wrote many journals, articles, and poetry of his quest. Later he was privileged to meet the greatest environmental President of US history for which John 's writing was a powerful source of spirit, imagination, and inspiration--not only to the president, but to a people on the precipice of great change and awakening. We can thank John(poet) and President Theodore Roosevelt(farmer) for their visionary work for which affords us today the blessings of natural wonders that were Carefully set aside for future generations.

"Some men sit and watch the culture of the free rot in complacency and apathy; others go into the wilderness and discover for themselves the spark of the Divine Nature that rests abundantly just beyond our comfortable view"
~~carefulcarpenter

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kesh · #7 05-10-2008, 05:58 AM

i wonder if sophia will end up being a spree killer?

Sophia_ · #8 05-10-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kesh

i wonder if sophia will end up being a spree killer?

kesh -- you're a wildman!

dollie_midget · #9 05-10-2008, 11:54 AM

Can't you keep a diary?

Sophia_ · #10 05-10-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dollie_midget

Can't you keep a diary?

Love cannot fall silent in the hollow pages
of the days and the moments of the world's daily rages;
Shadowed in compact allignment with ancient texts and journals
awaiting discovery in waste baskets and backroom washroom urinals;
The sun must shine whether the clouds of despair curse profoundly
speaking truths and hidden linings of storm days past, loudly

bort · #11 05-10-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia_

kesh -- you're a wildman!

wildflower. Please.

Sophia_ · #12 05-10-2008, 10:45 PM

Sophia_ · #13 05-10-2008, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Governmento

I am confused are you haveing a conversation with yourself.. Or justifying your position.

Personally I just leave women alone till they get to know me. And they are willing to speak about what is going on with them.. I don't just start contoversial conversations with people who I hardly know. And don't expect people to do that with me. Sometimes getting to know and trust people takes time.

Major Pain

I talked with a random woman today at the Coffee Emporium. She was sitting by the window next to my table. She was watching as a woman was trying to work "Taco's" baby stroller and could figure out how the big red button would release the mechanism. We both watched. She turned and commented to me that she was tempted to go out and help. I recognized her for having empathy--I said to her that I, too, had thought about going outside to assist the woman. We then started a wonderful conversation.

At one point she told me that I had started her to think about the philosophical points which I had mentioned. Specifically, a couple that Rancheria had brought up in regards to some people's weak ethical stances. I then told her that I would again get in trouble as people overheard me talking to her. She exclaimed, "What! For having a nice conversation about touchy subjects?".

I said I had been admonished many times for randomly starting a conversation with strangers. She opened up and we found this was a common trait we shared. She had been having similar problems in Berkeley when she and her boyfriend would hear cries in the middle of the night and actually do something about it by calling the police. She said they started to look at them as kooks because they seemed to Care--where others simply ignored the noise. She went on to comment about living in LA and Albuquerque where they had problems with people who didn't care much for outsiders.

I said that the locals can get a bit testy, but basically they are protecting their own territory. My Wisconsin accent is 33 years blended into Californian, but people comment that they can still hear a slight bit--giving me away as a non-native. Mountain people here can still be weary of Easterners, as Rancheria has pointed out a few times at KR. This lady was from Oakland, Ca., just down for the wedding of a college friend. It was a pleasure to talk philosophy with a woman who can think for herself and express those thoughts without feeling intimidated or bothered by an opinionated old guy.

Skind · #14 05-11-2008, 12:25 AM

I feel sorry for you.

You see, if you didn't have such a piss-poor view of the capacity of other people, you would view such conversations as being quite normal - uncommon but still normal - rather than 'wonderful'.

Notice, however, that you somehow managed to orientate a conversation about someone else doing something else (notice also, that you did nothing to help) to somehow being about you and what you have undergone.

Pay attention to this problem of yours. Learn to deal with it. Learn to work around it. Learn to live with it.

Most of all, learn to admit to it. You will benefit no end from admiting your egocentricity and narcissim. Admitting it to yourself rather than resorting to your repeated attempts to disparage those that point it out to you will do nothing but give you information to carry your life forward.

Pay attention to what people say you are and you will learn.

The next step is to see if you can do this.

Personally, I don't view you as any different from any other person with a personailty disorder, so I fully expect you to use any means to wiggle you way out of actually having to do anything to change yourself.

Do something. Anything. Anything at all is better than the person you currently are.

Sophia_ · #15 05-11-2008, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skind

I feel sorry for you.

You see, if you didn't have such a piss-poor view of the capacity of other people, you would view such conversations as being quite normal - uncommon but still normal - rather than 'wonderful'.

Notice, however, that you somehow managed to orientate a conversation about someone else doing something else (notice also, that you did nothing to help) to somehow being about you and what you have undergone.

Pay attention to this problem of yours. Learn to deal with it. Learn to work around it. Learn to live with it.

Most of all, learn to admit to it. You will benefit no end from admiting your egocentricity and narcissim. Admitting it to yourself rather than resorting to your repeated attempts to disparage those that point it out to you will do nothing but give you information to carry your life forward.

Pay attention to what people say you are and you will learn.

The next step is to see if you can do this.

Personally, I don't view you as any different from any other person with a personailty disorder, so I fully expect you to use any means to wiggle you way out of actually having to do anything to change yourself.

Do something. Anything. Anything at all is better than the person you currently are.

So our final point was me teling this woman how important it is to participate in life; not just sit back and think, "What a nice person I am", but to participate in a cause--any cause. Get out and make a difference in your local world. Be a pest if you must! Strike up conversations that provoke people into action.

Remember, Governmento keeps suggesting to me to be quiet in the teahouse.

Thanks Skind.

"One shall be known by their causes"
~~carefulcarpenter

Skind · #16 05-11-2008, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia_

Get out and make a difference in your local world. Be a pest if you must! Strike up conversations that provoke people into action.

Thanks Skind.

"One will be known by their causes"
~~carefulcarpenter

No, no, no and for the last time , fucking no.

You're clearly incapable of telling the difference between reaction and positive action.

Has your supposed study of sociology, pscychology and spirituality not told you how that provoking people is not always a good way of encouraging growth in people? Have you not even came across the idea that sometimes the last person needed in the dynamic is yourself? Have you seriously never heard of butting the fuck out?

You're clearly in this for yourself,