I'm not just talking about cults here. If someone has gained enlightenment or spiritual harmony through a church, is it okay for the church to accept payment, gifts, tithes etc. for that, given that it usually comes from words and words are free?

Sure - was it not the church that gave him the words that lead to enlightenment?

And since when are words free?

slightly O/T but what-ev.

Don't trust anyone that relies on the money obtained from giving out "spiritual wisdom." They will make it their business that they will never be proved wrong because they rely on what their preaching to be "true," and roll in the dollars.
The people who should be giving it out should be open to learning and not afraid to change their mind about what they give out, people who rely on money will always be subject to bias.
I didn't want to have a philosophical debate with this guy I know who made his living doing religiously orientated pamphlets because if I ever convinced him some of the stuff he believed in was balls, how could he ever do his job again feeling the same?????? His job relies on him believing in what he's doing and his income was based solely on it,

Um... since forevers? How much did yours cost you?

Well gee, maybe he'd just so soul-destroying work for people he despised and resent every minute of it LIKE MAYBE THE WHOLE REST OF THE WORLD PERHAPS!

I think it's okay, as long as the establishment doesn't expect payment, and it is the enlightened one's decision to pay. Even so, if a person is naive enough to pay for spiritual enlightenment before they receive it, it's their own business and they cannot reprove the church for charging. Spiritual enlightenment is usually something that is gained without our making a conscious effort to do so. It is with time and experience that we realize our spiritual disposition. No establishment can guarantee spiritual enlightenment to it's adherents, and people who pay do so at their own risk.

Um, at the very least, the cost of the PC and the internet connection.

Not exactly. I mean, that'd be costing you even if you didn't say anything, and if you said ten times as much, it wouldn't cost you ten times as more. I guess we all pay for the infrastructure of communication, but that doesn't discriminate according to the quality of the wisdom imparted.

So, relatively speaking, should you be paying more for spiritual enlightenment than you do to, say, dial a pizza?

is this a scientology thread?

Going by the evidence all around us, I'd say it's almost compulsory.

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Not just Sci. Cults are bad, whether they charge you or not. But I was thinking more in the case of mainstream churches: if someone offers the Vatican all the money they have, should they accept?

Damnit - will you stick to your own topic

First it was is it ok to profit, then it was do words cost anything, then you agreed they do, so should some words cost more than others.

Gah.

What is it you actually want to know, and why?

Surly you're asking is it ok to give something back? And you're only looking at it from the perspective of the "Church" in whatever form that takes. If someone does something lovely for me, I often enjoy doing something nice for them. You don't just give in money either, but in time and skills. If I want to give something I don't see that it's wrong for that gift to be accepted. It's when a "gift" is expected that the problem occurs.

Enlighten me x

I think it's fine if the said party who is profiting is doing so by donation only....or by fair and non-pressured means such as selling books etc.

But I always thought that if you're wanting to "englighten" people, your information should generally be free...religious information should be accessible for anyone who wants it.

Churches kind of need to ask for money because being in the clergy is a full-time job, if they can't do any other work because of their commitment to their congregation they need some financial support. Also, what about things like heating and electricity and books for the actual church?

I don't think OO is talking about that because if that money really does go towards the upkeep of the church and the clergy's needs then no real profit is made. I think this thread refers to clergy members charging for their services.

Idk it's kinda vague, man?

Ah, sorry I kind of misread the word profit. I thought the thread was talking about collection plates and the like, because I've heard people criticising religions for having collections. But yeah, the thing I don't like about cults and New Age things is the fact that they usually charge fixed fees which suggests they aren't that interested in helping people. I don't like self-help type things for a similar reason, or those evangelical churches that claim that wealth is proof of God's approval. I guess the Catholic churches are quite wealthy, although a lot of that seems to go into buildings which everyone can enjoy for free (if not in a spiritual sense).

It would be okay if it were voluntary giving. It wouldn't be okay if someone gave the Vatican 5 million bucks as a gift/donation and then the Pope decided to use it to throw a kickass birthday party for himself and all his buddies.
What would be ethical though is if 5 million bucks was donated to the Vatican and they used it to expand their library or used it for their charity or missionary work.

Well yes and no. It would be a justification of asking for money. I'm all for churches as places for people to gather, even for non-religious events (e.g. bake sales or whatever), I think that's a good example of what the church can give back to the community in a more practical sense than just saying "Yeah, God'll get back to you on that". I think part of the problem these days is that religion doesn't serve the social as well as spiritual function that it used to. I think it's a big part of the reason why cults and alternative religions like Wicca have become more people, because people get more out of them than just beliefs, they get a sense of community that the major religions increasingly fail to provide.