I have to do an essay on animal rights, basically trying to answer the question, if we deny animals have rights do any absurd consequences arise. Right, sorry all the people that are members of PETA but whilst I'm not going to be condoning mindless violence towards animals, I'm not going to be saying that we should treat them as equals. I think the whole speciesism thing is rubbish. However, due to the lecturer and notes being written by someone who is pretty for animal liberation I'm lacking a few sources and I wonder if anyone could help me.

First, I think behaviourism has been convienently over-looked and was wondering if anyone whose done psychology or is just interested in it could point me in the direction of a fairly brief over-view (but not wikpedia brief) of the topic. Prefferably one that sites people like B.F. Skinner and the like so I have some proper authority to back it up.

Secondly, the issue of speech has come up as dividing factor between ourselves and animals, however it seems to have been rebutted purely because a few chimps learned sign language. We were told that "there have been lots of criticisms that the chimps were not using "language" but all these criticisms have been disproved and the critics just keep moving the goal posts on what language is." with a few brief examples. I fortunatly have read a little about language, and things like the ability to relate hypothetical, counterfactual, conditional, unreal, fitional ideas, the ability to ask a question, to form abstractions, displacements, negations and modifying words (not forming new ones) were not mentioned as things the chimps could do. She seemed to be excited because they came up with a new word for fridge. SO....... what I'm looking for is a fairly uptodat criticism of animals using language but all the net ones I've found are from the animal rights side of things and these things are not mentioned. Any help?

please even if you're a animal rights activist type don't hold out on me or I'll kill a rabbit or something.

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If you ever feel useless and depressed, remember: one day you were the fastest spermatozoon of all.

most animals who use sign language only use it based on a reinforced reward system. Monkey see, monkey do, monkey gets the bananna...

there have been experiements that have shown they can make new words and answer new questions but like, the only reason we focus in on this ability of speech is it's an externalisation of our ability to reason. I think, no matter how complicated a string of words a chimp can put together it still isn't reason it's mostly just telling things like they are using more words. It seems to be in the people who think animals can use language say there is a big difference between a chimp going "banana" (in ASL) and a chimp going "large, yellow, cold banana on a black tray." it's a sentence but it dosn't show any reason.

It's hard to get stuff on this though because they people that raise the chimps don't let critics near them, the critics merely have to shoot down all the evidence the supporters present.

__________________
If you ever feel useless and depressed, remember: one day you were the fastest spermatozoon of all.

Many people, including a shrinking list of scientists, want a wall that separate us from other animals. That's part of the reason creationists don't like evolution. Evolution knocks down almost every barrier humankind has put up. Creationists don't like the idea that people are not a "special" creation of god.

Skeptical Inquirer wrote some criticism of Koko the gorilla and her ability to use sign language. They also had some doubts about ASL abilities in chimps but had to acknowledge that many leading scientists, including the late great Carl Sagan, supported the research.

One can also say that about a 5 year old child.

Experiments with monkeys have shown they can think things out. Some have even learned to play video games, and become very good at it.

there is the case of that famous chimp in captivity.

it had kids at one point but was now seperated from them. anyway, it did paintings. most of these paintings depicted her and her kids. it also apparently took a liking to one of the men who was studying it - she really fancied him. one day the man took a risk and brought his wife/girlfriend and his kids to see her. he wasn't sure how the chimp would react, but it seemed to understand what he was trying to say and started to do paintings of this guy, his wife/girlfriend and their kids, too. amazing stuff, really.

as for seperating us from animals, one of the most argued psychological cases for evolution is that our brains become better because of the lies we tell each other i.e. we lie, those who see through the lie survive and create bigger lies. we'd like to think we're different from animals, but we're probably just a little further along the evolutionary scale.

in terms of chemical biology, we have a nerve system the same as that of animals. we also have the same chemicals floating around in our heads (for the most part. cats are supposed to have the sort of chemicals floating around in their heads that most people who have taken e have floating around theirs. the common thread is that our brain react to the same chemicals in the same way, even if those chemicals are not so naturally abundant in certain spieces). anyway, a dogs capacity for pain is as great as ours. it is the same biological process. the difference (we think) is our potential to understand this pain (and perhaps overcome it?). although if this makes the pain less or more bearable is a very heated debate.

i should add that the major difference between us and chimps is our thumb.

chimps have thumbs, but are unable to bend it back against their palm as we are able. there was a sutdy done where they tried to teach chimps how to tie shoelaces. they seemed to be able to understand the concept and how it worked, but were let down by physical constraints (their thumbs were not as flexible as ours).

the importance in primates learning american sign language is that
it shows cognitive behavior...

some places to start on the web:

www.koko.org

www.noreelapes.com or org (can't remember off the top of my head)

www.wwf.org

if you have any sort of affiliation with a school or college, look on JSTOR for articles by:

terrance
patterson
peters
nim chimpsky
washoe
georgia state university primate center
koko
michael

I wish I would have seen this sooner...lemme go check something really fast..

xoxo

Really? That's fantastic.

Unfortunately I don't know much about this topic but I find it all really fascinating. I hope people post more information...

i wonder if anyone could ever set up a keyboard with a voicepad for monkeys, kinda like the one steve hawkings uses?
now that'd be eerie.

jimmy-

mac has developed several computers for koko the gorilla that have
touch screens- she was also the first "primate" to have a net chat in 1998

Unfortunately skeptics were not so impressed.

http://atheism.about.com/library/mis...++ape+language

I think for research purposes you should adopt a tribe of Banobos.

Some people are offended by the amount of sex bonobos have. Straight sex, gay sex....

koko still sounds smarter than most of the 16 year olds on myspace.

thank you so much bootsoffire, you have been most helpful. I've shifted the focus of my essay to this woman called mary midgley and her views on speciesism, but still lot of good support there. thank you so much.

__________________
If you ever feel useless and depressed, remember: one day you were the fastest spermatozoon of all.

Don't humans do the same? Not a rhetorical question, just not sure what the difference is between learning to say something for a related reward (i.e. asking for something and getting it) and an unrelated one (i.e. getting a treat every time you say "blue" right), other than that the latter seems like a really inefficient way of teaching.

you have the coolest avatar ever!

monkey want!

I didn't catch this until someone quoted it. This may be true, I don't know that much about animals and sign language. But I have taken a class in primate behavior (we just didn't spend much time on the language thing) and I think you are vastly underestimating the abilities of our closest living relatives. (Apes, not monkeys, though I realize that you may actually be talking about monkeys here.) And as vegyrex said, this does describe most human infants, toddlers, etc. too. This is one of the questions Peter Singer asks about the ethical ramifications of testing on primates, actually- in a nutshell, if it's ok to do it to chimpanzees because they will generally never be as smart as humans generally can be, why is it not ok for us to experiment on for example, severely mentally handicapped children who are given up for adoption? (And no, he's not advocating for that, and neither am I, just think about it).

But back to topic- primates are incredibly bright. They are problem solvers and they learn from each other. (Which is how children learn too- by watching other children and adults) There was one chimpanzee in captivity who had lost her teeth and figured out that she could smash apples against a wall to make it softer to eat and all of the other chimps decided they'd give it a try too, for example.
And they are manipulative just like little kids too- some of the ones they taught sign language would tell different caretakers that they didn't get their treats (or something like that) to try and get more. They're pretty damn smart, and of course, I'm sure you know that th