I totally get your point.

I'm gonna pm you about the "penfriend thread" now (I've been thinking about that for a while and now I just have to )

I didn't miss the point of feminism. You can be a feminist and still be FEMININE- you are in control of your own image and you are not being exploited. Hence, Courtney rocked what she had.

Sorry babe- I don't believe in looking like a dirty boy to prove my point that "girls can do what guys do". If we are going to end up being androgynous beings- then what's the point? Where did the "feminine" go? I celebrate my tits and ass- if you deny them then you know nothing about being a woman.

And yes, an educated woman is a powerful woman. Education differentiates a woman who is actually doing SOMETHING with her life from a woman is only bitching and moaning about it. You are more than welcomed to pick up a guitar and rant and rave, but then, what are you going to sing about if you have an empty head? About how your boyfriend dumped you and you hate getting your period?! Yeeeaahhh real empowering.

As you can see Riot Grlll made 0% difference in the music scene. Where's the after affects of this great movement? All I'm seeing are a bunch a teeny boppers on this board bitching and moaning because I don't like BK.

(((When I knock on your door all I hear are echos my dear)))

-Marilyn

whatever

Feminism was and is still about being WHAT YOU WANT TO BE. Wanna be girly and feminine? Be so. Wanna be a tomboy? Then be so as well. So I believe that, yes, you did miss the point of feminism.

Genius...

Tell that to the "feminists" on here who have a problem with cute fuckable girls.

-Marilyn

I totally agree. I'm glad to see a topic about riot grrrl and Tobi!

Difference in the music scene is determined by money. Nirvana sold a lot of records, so a bunch of shitty bands that sounded like Nirvana were signed.
Is that a good thing? What are the after effects of grunge? Puddle of Mudd and Staind.
It doesn't mean Nirvana wasn't a good band.

Bikini Kill were a good band too. Does it really matter they didn't sell enough records that A&R guys started scouring the country signing up any band that sounded remotely similar?
It might have not been a huge commerical force, but I'm sure Bikini Kill inspired a few people.

I think Tobi is cute. You're making out like she's some disgusting looking beast.
Personally I think she looks better in a t-shirt than Courtney ever looked in a dress. And I wouldn't classify early 90's Courtney as a "cute" or "fuckable" either. Fat skank yes, but not cute.

And the fact you said Kim Gordon was attractive just proves you're out of your mind.

Maybe they didn't sell records because they had no talent? Just because you place a so called "message" on NOISE doesn't mean it's gonna fly.

-Marilyn

Whatever floats your boat. I know personally that I'm on this website because I think Courtney is gorgeous - PRE surgery.

I'm wondering why you guys aren't on a Toby Vail Website???..........oh wait.. nobody cares!

-Marilyn

you were the one complaining about tobi not being cute enough. i don't think anyone here has tried to make the point that feminism and fuckability are mutually exclusive. in fact, wasn't that your point just a few posts back?

maybe most people are only too "dump" to understand their message?
or to comfortable in their ways to listen to someone who suggests change. cause if you want to change something you have to fight for that change and most people rather accept the circumstances than fight.

and maybe their music is not for everybody. some people like it and some rather listen to country. or to nirvana.
but that does not mean that bikini kill are not talented. because having sold many records does not equal talent.
or are you gonna say britney spears is talented???

I don't think that anybody here has a problem w/"cute fuckable girls".
I don't remember anyone saying something remotely similar...but I could be wrong...

All we or some said was the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" which means that not everyone finds that same things beautiful. If you don't find tobi vail cute, beautiful, fuckable or whatever then I personally have no problem w/that. And I think most of the others would agree there.

What I (and maybe "we") have a problem with is that you don't seem to think that tobi could have a nice personality and that that was the reason why kurt went out with her. What people tried to tell you here is that beauty is not everything that matters. Nothing against being beautiful/cute/"fuckable" but just because you're not does not mean that you are an inferior person.

met tobi vail a while ago she was very pretty and very sweet and her new band spider and the webs are really good live and on cd

I think she was ugly before surgury and freakishly ugly afterwards. But she used to have talent. That's why I'm on this website. I'm a fan of her old music.

Nobody cares about Tobi these days because not everybody is willing to go to the extent Courtney does for attention. Crazy as it sounds, some people don't want attention for having their tits sucked by strange men in fast food restaurants.
If it was all about music nobody would care about Courtney either. The bitch may help sell tabloids but she sure as fuck can't sell records.

I totally agree. I first came here because I loved Hole - and still do - and met nice people on here.

Now, in a way, I think this debate should not even be because these women are SINGERS! Not models, SINGERS! Which means that what matters is what they write and compose, not what they wear. In a way, I think that Candy-o has words that are sexist.

(you just made me really laugh out loud, which doesn't happen very often)

you are so right!

(minus courtney being ugly pre-surgery...I thought she had somehting very pretty to her...but "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and I'm not gonna start fighting w/you about who of us is right - cause we both are )

I made a COMMENT thinking that Tobi looked different. Then I used the word "cute". The complaint posts start from other board members who took offense from others discussing physical attractiveness.

Feminism and fuckability have never been discussed as being "mutually exclusive". My OPINION regarding one's femininity shouldn not be used as a concrete example to create conclusions on an issue that is obviously seen by me in a much different light from the rest of the board.

-Marilyn

Gloria who??

After all these threads I have yet to been greeted with an eager, rabid fan to explain to me what message Bikini kill is spreading?

Can someone be so kind as to post lyrics to their empowering songs?

Can someone name current female singers/ bands that spawned off the whole Riot Grll movement and were eager to make a difference?

Can someone please defend BK- with THEIR content, not just in your opinion?

For example- I adore The Slits and many people hate them- think they are ugly and are horrible musicians. What I say to that is- yes they weren't good they weren't talented, they made no point or expressed no profound message in their music but I personally find their songs catchy and that's why I like them.

I'm at the point where I stick with the truth and I am mature enough to know that romanticism within rock doesn't exist anymore. (I guess when you are 17 you are still in the dark.)


As I mentioned before this thread should not be taken personally. Each of us have their likes and dislikes. But at this point, I am convinced that Riott Grrrl has influenced many girls to stick up for an attitude that comes across as brash and incredulous INSTEAD of cultivating a way of life that holds a purpose.

-Marilyn

Ha. Well at least we know Kurt wasn't shallow.