I was listening in my car to the news and a lady citizen of Lebanon is right...

she said "Israels have killed alot of our citizens over 2 kidnapped soldiers, it just isn't right!"

I then felt her pain and felt that she was right. Two soldiers are worth the lives of 800+ deaths and over 3,000 injured? It's how I also feel about this war with Iraq and afghanistan.

Then as I was driving along, a church sign read "The middle east signs point to the end times" Something along those lines but I had a glance so I'll take a picture of that sign and it's really frustrating. How can this be God's will when the ones doing this are humans? It's so obvious that this war isn't just about oil but it's about religion.

What I don't get is why we think Jews can do no wrong? Is it we prefer their skin color over the brown skin tone of Arabs? No that can't be it because we also have a pact with Taiwan who are the underdogs. Maybe it's because Jews have such a low population in comparison to Arabs and we want to help the fight in their favor so they won't become an endangered race. That could be it but I think it also has to do with religion and how in the bible and many often quote this as Jews being the chosen race...that brings in immunity of some form making Jews out to be always right no matter if they do anything wrong.

With how many times we get to listen to holocaust stories and how Jews were treated, why would the Jewish leader carelessly harm citizens like that? I'm not comparing by the way the holocaust with this but I am comparing both of them as violent acts that of which they are and Israel is being the most violent and have killed more Lebonese citizens in the past months than any suicidal bombers have killed Israelies in years!

Now onto you Vegyrex. I know that you are Jewish and this might be harsh for you to read but I don't associate you with the leader of Israel right now as much as I don't associate American citizens with George Bush's actions. It's always the civilians that go down and leaders don't care. They only care if it is someone they personally care about in their life while we are just insignificant little pieces in a chess game

I'm not Jewish.

I'm of Mexican descent and I grew up Roman Catholic.

Oops, my mistake, I thought you mentioned that some time ago but it must have been someone else

Actually, we didn't help Israel defend themselves at all during the most dangerous time in their history, the Six-Day War, when they were attacked by a few different countries simultaneously. It was only after Israel proved its military ability that funding from the U.S. skyrocketed--and I mean fucking SKYrocketed--from 11 million a year to 600 million during 1970-1974. (If I remember my dates right.)

I really think the only plausible viewpoint from this information is, We fund whoever we want, no matter how corrupt, if they serve our purposes. Look at Saudi Arabia--we $$$love$$$ them, and they are MASSIVELY corrupt. Same with Egypt since we bought their loyalty.

You should look at the history of American imperialist-colonialism vs. Arab nationalism. Whenever Arabs have tried to control oil in the region, there has been a military strike by the U.S. The leader of Iran was assassinated by the CIA when he was poised to nationalize oil, and the U.S. installed the pro-U.S. Shah. And now the current leader of Iran apparently is interested in weighing oil against the Euro instead of the dollar, which some would say will wreck our economy completely. But that's outside of my comprehension.

And now there's no underestimating the war for water, either, which may one day be worth more than oil.

This carnage is all happening for financial reasons. That is, the people who fight believe in the emotional reasons for why it's happening (i.e. that Muslims and Jews hate each other), but the leaders could stop it any time. In point of fact, EVERY. SINGLE. WAR that the U.S. has moved to stop in the Middle East, they have stopped. And you better believe that a country which gives Israel allllll its money would be able to stop them from going overboard like this if they wanted to.

Condi Rice is going around announcing "the new Middle-East" with confidence because it is OUR bombs that is creating it.

I'm in agreeance with your post and I meant that not only is it over oil but religion does play a role in it as well. We have someone in the office that caters to the Christian community so even though he might be faking his faith, there sure is alot of promotion of these deeds that revolve around religion as well as power, greed, oil corruption.

My concern is that if there comes a day when we are not dependant on oil, we'll just find another reason to attack. It just seems people cannot get over attacking people no matter how many conflicts are resolved. I can see people resolving war worthy conflicts and then deciding to attack each other over salt!

no.
two soldiers are just isreal's lame excuse to bomb lebanon. they don't give a shit about those soldiers. they needed a "sensible" reason to attack and looks like they've found it

I don't really agree with that. While it's true that Israel has an incredible media engine and the Palestinians have nothing, and it's true that they use racism against Islam to give Americans the impression that they are all filthy barbarians, the original machinations for invasion and funding Israel have little to do with religion. Again I would point out all the Islamic countries we fund.

Really, the founding of Israel had a significant amount to do with the anti-immigrant and anti-semitic racism of the U.S. and Britain at the time. Rich Nazis (yes, the founders of Israel took money from Nazis), British banker scum, and crazy right-wing Jews in the U.S. all funded the Israel project while, simultaneously, the U.S. and British borders denied entrance to tons of Jews fleeing the Holocaust. It's sad shit. And it's all true.

The story of WWII is one of the United States' favorite bedtime stories. In it, we save the entire planet from Hitler. Of course, we also didn't even bother getting involved until we were attacked....................... oops.

The whole war right now is NOT about 2 soldiers, the 2 soldiers were just the final straw.
Libanon has been harboring Hezbolla, a terrorist organisation, heck, they even have Hezbolla ministers in the gouverment.
Until Israel invaded, Hezbolla had 15.000+ missles pointed at Israel from the South of Lebanon, fireing them regularly onto innocent Israeli citizins.
Am I saying that Israels violence is okay, that I condone them killing innocent civilians in Libanon?
No, but how Hezbolla operates is, they enter a civilian neighborhood, fire a missle at Israel, and run.
Israel want to whipe out Hezbolla and bombs the place from where the rockets were fired.
They'll only get innocents, because the Hezbolla asshole who shot the rocket had long gone, which is why Israel wanted to start a groundwar, so they can actually SEE if someone is Hezbolla or an innocent bystander.
Hezbolla is smart, with Israel fireing at civilians, the resistance towards Israel grows amonst the Libanese popualtion, because "the Israeli's kill us, the innocent".
They don't understand that Hezbolla deliberately WANTS this to happen, so they can get more support and expand their army of militants.
Again, I do think the violence used is disproportional, but I can't very well blame the Israeli's for defending themselves against a terrorist group.
And this also (IMO) can't be compared to Iraq or Afghanistan, since Israel is actually next to Lebanon, Hezbolla rockets can reach them and kill civilians.
Last time I checked, Iraq was a big ass distance away from the US, and they have next to none ties with Al Quada, which the US is supposed to be "hunting down".
And Iraq is now invaded by a range of countries, where Israel is on it's own.
Again, I do not agree with the amount of violence Israel is using, but I am on their side.
It has nothing to do with religion or skin color (I'm not a biggot and I'm not religious) I just support them because they are under constant attack, and the world always sits back and does nothing.
So is it weird that at one point they'll handle things in their own way and on their own terms?
I think not.
If what happened in Israel (the bombings etc.) had happned anywhere else in the world, peace troops would have been sent way earlier to help out.
Yet Israel is left on their own, so I can't really blame them for striking back.
I do blame them for using disproportionate violence against innocents.
If they would have started a ground war, maybe less people would have died, since they can actualy tell if someone is carrying a bazooka over their shoulder or not.

Think about this war and how missles are shot into Israel and how alot of those missles don't even cause casualties. Not saying that is right but both sides have been wrong for quite sometime and neither will admit to any wrong doing. Israel's attacks are hurting thousands of civilians. The lady was trying to compare thousands of people getting hurt over Israel's bombing over two kidnapped soldiers. That was their justification but Israel is no saint and are always just defending themselves and they are also invading Gaza. This is just an excuse and with the U.S on their side, it makes it that much easier.

Israel's Gaza Problem

By Marjorie Cohn, AlterNet. Posted July 4, 2006.


Israel's devastating invasion of Gaza threatens to cripple the densely populated area, and may drive legions of Palestians to jihad. Tools
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The daily horrors emerging from Iraq have caused a majority of people in the United States to oppose Bush's war there. Meanwhile, the humanitarian crisis Israel has created in the occupied territories hovers below the radar for most Americans.

Israel has used the killing of two Israeli soldiers and the capture of a third by Palestinians as an excuse to invade Gaza with overwhelming military force and demolish its infrastructure. What Israel and its benefactor -- the United States -- really want is to destroy the democratically elected Hamas government.

During the preceding weeks, Israel instigated events that resulted in the capture of the Israeli soldier. The Israeli military had killed more than 30 civilians, including three children and a pregnant woman.

In the week since the Israeli soldier was captured, Israel's U.S.-supplied artillery has pounded the northern Gaza Strip. Its aircraft struck bridges on the main roads. And its helicopters knocked out Gaza's main power plant, leaving half of Gaza's 1.5 million people and its two main hospitals without electricity and running water. The United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross have warned of a humanitarian crisis.

Israeli troops and tanks rolled into the southern Gaza Strip, in the biggest raid since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Israel has kidnapped 64 Palestinian governmental ministers and politicians. It bombed the home of Palestinian Prime Minister Ismael Haniyeh.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert made the astounding statement, "I am deeply sorry for the residents of Gaza, but the lives, security and well-being of the residents of [Jewish] Sderot is even more important to me." The Associated Press quoted Olmert as saying, "I want no one to sleep at night in Gaza. I want them to know what it feels like."

The crisis caused by the Israeli government has upset many Israeli citizens.

Hundreds of Israelis protested outside Olmert's home, denouncing the government as war criminals and demanding an end to the Gaza invasion. "We call for our government to stop targeting Palestinian civilians -- the targeting of civilians is a war crime -- and start negotiating with the elected Palestinian leaders, not to arrest them," said Yishai Menuhin, a spokesman for the peace group Yesh Gvul.

Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz commentator Gideon Levy also criticized the Israeli actions. He wrote, "A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization."

Israel's brutal retaliation against Palestinian civilians constitutes collective punishment. Attacks on a civilian population as a form of collective punishment violate article 50 of the Hague Regulations, which provides: "No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible."

The Fourth Geneva Convention also prohibits collective punishment. Article 33 says: "No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed." The Convention requires all states party to it to search for and ensure the prosecution of perpetrators of the war crime of "causing extensive destruction … not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly." Amnesty International called the deliberate attacks by Israeli forces against civilian property and infrastructure war crimes.

Collective punishment is likewise forbidden by Article 75 of Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions. As four U.S. Supreme Court justices agreed in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld last week, Article 75 is "indisputably part of the customary international law."

Before Israel's invasion of Gaza last week, Hamas was beginning to retreat from its position that Israel has no right to exist. But Financial Times quoted Efraim Halevy, Israel's most widely respected security expert, as saying, "Why should Israel care whether Hamas grants it the right to exist? Israel exists and Hamas's recognition or non-recognition neither adds to nor detracts from that irrefutable fact."

The state of Israel is in no danger of perishing. Israel is the fourth-largest military power in the world. Its "enemy" - the Palestinian people - have no tanks, no airplanes, no heavy artillery.

The United States' loyal and consistent support for Israel's policies -- to the tune of more than $3 billion in aid per year -- has enabled the Israeli government to conduct a war of terror against the Palestinians. Yasser Arafat once told an American journalist, "I'll tell you what this war taught us. It taught us that the real enemy is the United States. It is against you that we must fight. Not because your bombs killed our people, but because you have closed your eyes to what is moral and just."

If the United States really wished to act on its human rights rhetoric, it should apply political and economic pressure that Israel could not resist. Under the Arms Export Control Act of 1976, military hardware sold by the United States can only be used for defensive purposes or to maintain internal security. Israel has used F-16 fighter jets, Apache and Cobra attack helicopters, 15mm howitzers, M-16 automatic rifles, M50 machine guns, and many other weapons and ammunition supplied by the United States. Retired U.S. Army Gen. James J. David, in a letter to Colin Powell in January 2002, wrote: "If you're going to deny the Palestinians weapons to defend themselves, then you must stop all military and economic aid to Israel."

The Foreign Assistance Act prohibits the United States from rendering assistance to the government of any country " which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights."

The United States should halt Israel's aggression against the Palestinians by suspending all economic and military aid to Israel until Israel's military forces have been withdrawn from the occupied Palestinian territories.

But Israel is the U.S. client-state in the Middle East, and Bush is just the latest U.S. president to continue that symbiotic relationship.

Hamas has responded to the recent Israeli aggression with threats of retaliation. This probably means the resumption of the suicide bombings which Hamas halted more than a year ago. A statement signed by Hamas spokesman Abu Obeidi said, "We reiterate that the continued aggression and terrorist acts of the tyrannical occupation against the Palestinian people, amid the silence of the international community, will plunge the region in a sea of blood."

A 2002 New York Times editorial said, "The growing harshness of Israeli military practices in the West Bank and Gaza is creating thousands of potential suicide bombers and Israel haters as well as coarsening a generation of young Israeli soldiers."

Marjorie Cohn is a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law, president-elect of the National Lawyers Guild and the U.S. representative to the American Association of Jurists.

http://www.alternet.org/story/38488/

Define "terrorist organization", then demonstrate how Israel doesn't fit the description. Before this incident, they kidnapped and tortured Lebanese people while occupying the south of Lebanon. Thus, by no possible definition did Lebanon "start this". Israel is in a constant state of aggression with the people who comprise and SUPPORT HezbAllah and Hamas.

Nothing has been fired "regularly" at Israeli citizens. It has happened sporadically. Whereas the occupation and its effects occur daily on innocent civilians. The problem is that you and people like you don't acknowledge police or military brutality and its effects on the people. Nor, I suppose, do you understand that what I am saying in no way justifies suicide bombings on Israel--it simply explains it. The same way many sad facts explain Israel's brutality.

I've heard this logic before. And you wouldn't support it if it was happening in your country. You would call it genocide. And the difference here is that U.S. citizens have the power to stop it. There is no reason to "side" with Israel when you know they are doing something wrong! If you love Israel, you should be helping push them to stop murdering innocents!

I'm sorry, but you essentially just admitted that the bombing of Lebanon was genocide. Do you REALLY think that Israel didn't know it would hit primarily civilians when it bombed schools, hospitals, and everything that moved? Jesus.

There is no one and no prayer on this Earth that the U.S. will stop funding Israel, and that Israel will cease its encroachment. So, yes, that's correct. Because HezbAllah is the only acknowledged resistance of the people.

If you believe there is a peaceful alternative, tell me who it is. I am asking this to you as a pacifist--what alternative do they have? The International community has already condemned the U.S. and Israel for war crimes, and they have done nothing as a result. WHO speaks for the people of Palestine and Lebanon?

Disgusting. Israel's list of war crimes is a mile long. They have funded terrorist regimes themselves. Did you know that? By your own logic, should Israel be annhilated?

No. The ball is entirely in the U.S.'s court, and they sent bombs instead of peacekeeping forces. And they did it for a reason. ALL of this is happening for a reason, as naively as you might believe this is simply a "passionate retaliation".

Bless all Israelis of conscience.



Disgusting.

And who is surprised? Israel has willfully heightened the state of hostility.

It's simple really, Israel is a counrty, HezbOllah (that's how the Dutch media spells it, and since I'm Dutch, I spell it Hezbolla, or we should ALL write HizbAllah.)
A country isn't an organistaion, therefor Israel is not a terrorist organisation.
If it was a millitant group, I guess they could be concidered terrorists, from an Arab point of view.
An please quote me where I said LEBANON started this.
HEZBOLLA started this IMO.
And if you allow terrorists into you goverment, you're not SUPPORTING Hezbolla, you're HARBORING hell, GLORIFING even.

And you wrote this from California?
How the hell would you know from where you're sitting what has been fired how many times?
I have friends who have family in Israel, including near the border, and yes, they do strike often, even before the Israeli's dicided to stand up for themselves.

That works in both directions, for the innocent Israeli victims too dear.
When you loose family in a busexplosion because some asshole decides he hates your country, you get angry too.
But have you SERIOUSLY ever heard of a miilitant Jew organisation blowing up busses and restaurants etc in Palastinia or Lebanon?
Nope, me neither.

I'm sorry, but anyone who even TRIES to explain why people blow up innocents full of busses looses me in the process.
I could make the same arguments about Israel defending themselves, but you wouldn't accept it either.
I'm sorry, but I don't even WANT to understand how a terrorist thinks, is that okay with you?

I'd like to think I would also be smart enough to blame the fuckers who shoot at people fromt he safety of our neighbourhood only to run away and leave innocents with the mess.

I wouldn't know if the US citizens can stop this war, since I'm Dutch.
I think it's pretty delusional to think citizens of a country that has (aside from money etc.) not one freakin' thing to do with the war can stop it.
Only two groups of people can stop it: Hezbolla and Israel.
Not one fucking thing I can do about it.
And I commented on the things I think Israel did wrong, (not starting a ground war to prevent innocent civilian lives taken, disproportionate violence etc.) and I side with them because I think they're right.
I firmly believe they are doing the right thing by trying to get rid of Hezbolla.

QUOTE ME!
All I "essentially just admitted" was that Hezbolla "fighters" willingly and knowingly use civilians as a shield.
AND I explained why Israel wanted to start a groundwar.
Please don't put words in my mouth.

You seem utterly disgusted with your own country and Israel too.
Do you actually perfer Hezbolla being "chosen by the people" because they actually get their own people killed to gain support?

Well, first of all, being a terrorist group doesn't help.
If they want peace, they should at least try to be peaceful.
I have no idea what or how, but I think we all understand that terrorism doesn't lead to much understanding from others.
Did you feel the need to hug an al Quada millitant on 10/11?

Uhhmmm, NOT blow up people?
I don't know, wild guess.
It's sad that a country is so uneducated that they feel that terrorism is the only way to be heard.
But what should Israel have done?
Condone their civilians being blown up by terrorists?
Turn the other cheek?
I think not.

There's plenty of organisations who speak out for them, one is being led by a delusional Dutch cunt who makes jokes about 6 million this and 6 million that.
They HAVE supporters.
And as long as the international community doesn't LIVE in Israel, what the fuck do they know?
MY FRIENDS have family there, and they are affraid to get on a bus, in Jerusalem they DON'T ride bus #13, because out of all busses, it seems that line gets blown up the most.
WHO speaks up for them?

I agree, having to defend yourself against terrorists makes me sick too.

Where did I say that ANY COUNTRY should be annihilated?
It seems you keep putting words in my mouth, and I really don't appreciate that.
And I don't care who HAS funded who, I care about NOW.
Lebanon (both the people and the goverment) still support Hezbolla NOW.
That's dispicable.

See, this is not about the US, if that was the case, let's drag in Syria and Iran too, since they fund Hezbolla, they send them money and arms.
And you're right, this IS happening for a reason.
The Arab countries surrounding Israel seem to think that because they prey to a different god, they are superior, that Israel should not exist.
They keep funding and forming terrorist groups that think they can destroy Israel, which they can't.
It would be a sad day when they win because you know what?
That same terrorist organisation can come after you (they don't care if you're a pacifist) and your counrty next, because you're different too.

What (according to you) should Israel have done?
Return land they took?
Wait, they already did that, and Hezbolla took that land, and in return placed missles on it.
That's right, I forgot.
So really, how should Israel diffuse this situation?

No shit. There was always that joke about weapons of mass destruction, that we knew they'd got them because we kept the receipts.


I side with the Lebanon over Israel, because like duhhhh. As for Israel and Hizbollah [sp?], I dunno, too close to call for me, without knowing a lot more of the history I wouldn't want to pick a side. I find the whole idea of "sides" kinda silly in these situations, like you have to be on one side or the other and either not giving a shit who wins or being able to see both viewpoints is somehow a weakness. I wouldn't want to lend my support to either Israel or Hizbollah, truth me told.

Well I totally disagree just to disagree with you