We have made them the fourth largest military superpower in the world, and they act just like we do--like terrorists.

1. Israeli military advisers helped to train the militaries and secret police agencies of such "friends of Israel" as the Shah of Iran, Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire, Emperor Jean-Bedel Bokassa in the Central African Republic, General Idi Amin in Uganda, and Ian Smith of Rhodesia.

2. In 1978, Israel sold U.S. jets and attack helicopters to Indonesia as that country's military carried out genocide against East Timor. Its relationship with the Suharto dictatorship continued, despite the fact that the Indonesian military had killed more than 200,000 Timorese by 1998.

3. In the last year of the Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua, Israel provided 98 percent of the arms that Somoza used to kill 50,000 Nicaraguans. In 1980, Israel supplied 83 percent of the arms to the genocidal military regime of Guatemala.

4. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, Israel earned more than $1 billion per year selling weapons to the military dictatorships in Argentina, Chile, and Brazil. "Thus while Jewish newspaper publisher [and human rights advocate] Jacobo Timerman was being tortured by the Argentine military in cells painted with swastikas, three Israeli generals, including the former armed forces chief of staff, were visiting Buenos Aires on a 'friendly mission' to sell arms."

5. In 1977, Israel's foreign minister, Moshe Dayan, announced that Israel would not abide by the international arms embargo against the racist South African apartheid regime. Even an Israeli newspaper conceded, "It is a clear and open secret known to everybody that in [South African] army camps one can find Israeli officers in not insignificant numbers who are busy teaching white soldiers to fight Black terrorists with methods imported from Israel."

6. Israel anchored an international terrorist network that ran guns, drugs, and other weapons between Panama's Noriega, the Contras in Nicaragua, Middle Eastern arms dealers, the Sultan of Brunei, and the CIA. The Reagan administration made use of this network during the "arms for hostages" Contragate affair in the mid-1980s.

Yeah, fuck them.

Neighbouring arab countries have a long history of invading or attacking, and not recognising that Israelis have a right to even live. There's blood on both hands, and in both cases it's mostly from civilians.

That isn't the point. The point is that they are terrorists and the U.S. has provided the funding for that country, AND its terrorism, and its terrorism is merely an extention of all our terrorist projects across the world. The point is that the U.S. should have cut funding to them decades ago, and pressured them along with the rest of the world to comply with the Geneva conventions and later the accord. But Israel has been a terrorist and imperialist project since Kissinger and Nixon. THAT is the point of that list - and it is plain to see the truth for anyone who can accept it. All those terrorist projects were also U.S. terrorist projects.

As for equivalent carnage, there isn't now and never has been. Before the massacre of innocent Lebanese even began, since the time of the first intifada more than four times as many Palestinians were slaughtered as Israelis, consistently a huge portion of them children. And indiscriminately they have always been slaughtered, as if all are part of Hezbollah and as if their protests are not because oppression continues.

In other words, it is time for the country with all the guns and more money than their God to act like grown ups and make a REASONABLE fucking deal with the Palestinians. Stupidest of all, nothing they are doing will destabilize Hezbollah. What they are doing is just more resource control, the same way they conspicuously refused to give back the Jordan Valley water supply to the Palestinians in the Camp David deal. For a country of their absurd wealth to not give back the water of a people, and then expect those people they oppress not to continue to generate those who will join a terrorist resistance? How impossibly stupid and immoral can one be?

Why? It won't stop anything that Hizbollah, or Hamas, say or do (or Al Qaeda, on an only vaguely related point). They are permitted to act in self-interest, every country does. Until all parties in the area can be mature and want peace, and make peace, it's (unfortunately!) basically pointless.

And remember that the Arab countries have ganged up to invade Israel on several occasions, and have failed every time, even when the Israeli state basically wasn't even established yet, in the 1940s. So they're basically losers, and they already have over 99% of the land in the middle east anyway. They all need to grow up, and take a hard pill.

The entire world has a long history of extreme terrorism and genocide.

Zackly.

whats the ratio of Lebanese casualties to Israeli casualties, just a curiosity. Just..you know...wondering. A tally should be kept.

I disagree, Bort. It is not up to them, or about "maturity". It is about actual geopolitical machinations in the region that have been playing out since England and France first destabilized those Arab cultures, including by funnelling unwanted Jews into Israel, and now continued by the U.S., starting with Nixon and Kissinger.

Sure, Israel's government and military aims are in line with ours right now. But all of those things that Israel did, they did because WE told them to--they sold arms we gave them, and funnelled money we deposited in their coffers. (By 'we' I mean the U.S., obviously.) In other words, the United States pretends it has to talk to Israel about what it's doing, but, just as we gave them bombs so they wouldn't run out while destroying Lebanon just this past week, in reality these are ALL wars the United States could have put an end to.

Bort, you have to understand that peace was NEVER the goal! During the Camp David peace talks, the United States pretended it was merely an impartial arbitrator, trying hard to be understanding and help work out the best deal. This is seen as an utter distortion with only the most basic understanding of the United States ability to control Israel. The deal for the Palestinians even WITHOUT the right of return was untenable (it included having the land still occupied, divided by troop outposts, and all of its water STOLEN by the Israelis), and at the same time that President Clinton pretended to be strongarming Sharon into a peace agreement, he actually INCREASED funding to Israel, to a record high. We never strongarmed or forced Israel to negotiate at all! When you see that we have done nothing to press Israel to stop any massacre whatsoever, nor to offer a tenable deal to the Palestinians, there can be only one real possibility: peace in the region, again, was never the goal! How else explain the ceaseless funding no matter what Israel's actions, nor how corrupt?

FACT: If you read the history of the region, there is not one -- not ONE! -- request that the United States has made of any official military power whatsoever that they have not obeyed. Even the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq -- Hussain asked if he should invade, and the U.S. ambassador said at the time "we have no opinion on this". Every time we have told them to stand down, they have stood down. Simply put, when you factor in the aid we give them, there can be no other moral equivalency: it is America who is really declaring war on Lebanon, and who is oppressing the Palestinians. We could change the entire plan for the Middle East tomorrow. But we like it this way, because destroying nationalist infrastructure means cheaper natural resources, all in our control. That's of course why the Shah of Iran was installed; the then-leader of Iran at the time, Mossadegh, made a move to nationalize the oil production that Anglo imperialists had tried to co-opt, so that the profits of Arab resources would be received by -- wait for it -- the Arabs! So we had the CIA assassinate Mossadegh, and install the Shah. And now Iran is a danger and we blame their instability on madness and barbarism!

The United States could make peace in 95% of the Middle East in less than ten years if it so desired. But everything going on there now is the brutal product of imperalistic projects by England, France, or the United States -- we have installed dictators in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, and now Israel, as well as buying Egypt's leash with more cash. And anyone we can't control? We mark as crazy and have someone bomb the shit out of them.

You can oversimplify history. Or you can read about what has really destabilized these people, made them bitterly angry and their leaders corrupt.

bunny i dont know much, but i have been saying for about ten years now that it seems to me that america WANTS unrest in the middle east bc its easier to grab and steal. if there were peaceful democracy, we couldnt get cheap spoils.

__________________
When I awoke, the Dire Wolf
Six hundred pounds of sin
Was grinning at my window
All I said was "Come on in".
Grateful Dead

Kids in my Year 11 (10th grade, roughly) class were criticising me for not going in some "peace march" on Saturday, but I gave them hell today because it wasn't a peace march at all, but an anti-Israel march. The organiser of the march said on the news that "it shows the people of NZ support Hamas and Hizbollah". He'd have wanted more than 400 people then, though it isn't the largest of cities. And definitely not a "peace march". Saw plenty of anti-Israel signs in the crowd, but I didn't see the peace symbol even once.

Your problem, Bort, is you're accepting the invented model that the war is defensive on Israel's part and ideological, or fundamentalist, on the part of Palestine. Of course tons of Israelis and Palestinians hate each other. The question is WHY, and what can be done about it. Stop being so ideological and read some history and realize that it isn't just the freaking Hatfields and McCoys. These people have been systematically abused, and they know who is behind it- they know that Israel is a watchdog on the U.S. leash.

I saw this clip of the Lebanese ambassador being interviewed by some American shmuck on MSNBC, and the guy was like "yes, but how can we ever negotiate with Hamas when they say their ultimate goal is to make Israel disappear?" Of course the ambassador stared blankly at him, then said something like "uh, by making the Palestinians and Lebanese not NEED THE ISRAELIS TO DISAPPEAR JUST TO SURVIVE?" It's so pretentious and such a complete lie for two countries (the U.S. and Israel) with murderous militaries full of corruption to act like THEY are oh-so diplomatic and not at all extreme, while the resistance, gosh, they would never have that kind of intellectual capacity to develop a position based on any kind of peaceful withdrawal. Such bullshit. The Israelis have not ONCE offered an acceptible solution. And then they're surprised that rockets occasionally fly into Israel, or a soldier is kidnapped? You have caused this! You are proactively ABUSING the people who live there, and pretending that one organization's small assault is justification to destroy the infrastructure of a country and murder its women and children.

The point is still the same. There is no excuse for Israel to be supported by the U.S. with its continued human rights violations and freakish "accident rate" of murdering 1/4th children every time it attacks. The U.S. should be saying "for every settlement you build, for every Palestinian home you needlessly bulldoze, for every human rights violation you commit, for every drop of water you steal--for the simple madness that you hadn't even given Lebanon your minefield maps, you must LOSE our financial support!"

There is literally not one argument against this. Not ONE, except that we want the Arab world destroyed.

It's fucking ridiculous to pretend it's mutually justified aggression when there are colonial superpowers underneath everything going on. We have supported Israel strategically from day fucking ONE after the six-day war--if you look at our funding to them, it was infinitesimal before they smashed the Arab world's teeth at that time. It instantly sprung from ~11 million to 600 million.

that is the goal. period. this is indisputable, if you read history. everything we have done, we did just like the British and French before us.

again, the CIA assassination of Mossadegh in Iran was blatantly because he wanted to nationalize oil. so we installed the pro-U.S. Shah. and we supported Iraq, and trained Bin Laden to push the USSR's resource bid out. OOPS, then he became nationalist--better kill him. and Iraq went after some oil, suddenly Hussain is Just Like Hitler. snore.

for God's sake, the British let a family called the Sauds call the country they gave them "Saudi Arabia". It's A COUNTRY NAMED AFTER A FAMILY. and of course we love Saudi Arabia - we love the insane human rights violations that go on endlessly, the way people are murdered and raped and disappear -- one ten year old child criticized the royal family and was left swinging in the sun by a rope to die there in the heat -- because we get cheap oil.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I have to take issue with this in particular- Saddam was a dirty piece of shit, the thing is that never bothered us until approximately the first gulf war. And I do certainly think that things under him had mellowed out a bit in recent years to the point where people were seemed to be better off under him right before we invaded than they have ever been since.

__________________

oh yeah sorry- I didn't mean Saddam was actually cool. I think the same thing as you- that he was A-OK with us until we were done with him, and that the betterment of the Iraqi people was of no interest to us.

again, he is ultimately someone who would nationalize profit. so he is our enemy, and we will install someone who will cooperate with what we want, trading-wise.

No I do not. If I believe anything about the whole mess, it's probably that both sides are practically the same. Don't put words in my mouth. When it comes to teenagers marching, I believe that peace is peace, and anti-Israel marches are not the same thing.

Hey bunny,

What a list. It sounds almost as bad as our (US) list.

I've always held the opinion that we should not be funding IDF, except for the fact that Israel is a democracy, which is quite rare in them thar parts...

Israel has been very very naughty, and the US has been like a permissive parent. I think we should def pull back the reigns on their funding, although no doubt we'd hear cries of anti-Semitism and perhaps start getting bombed ourselves. I have no doubt in my mind that the Israeli military would be just as hostile to the US as al Qaida if we were not their "allie$$$." It's the Nazis fault! Every mation should take note: NEVER commit genocide, because the survivors will be mean old badasses!

BTW, where'd you get this info?

Fair enough with the words in your mouth, but I think this is so wrong it's sad. One is backed by people who can do something about it, and the other is backed by the people of the region, reacting to occupation. Saying Lebanon "houses" Hezbollah is nothing but an illusion to destroy the country's infrastructure, and we're seeing that now and will in the future--these networks proof as grass-roots movements is that they will have even more of a presence as these cities are destroyed.

I guess you could argue that Syria armed Hezbollah a long time ago, but to me that is just as pitiful an argument--they were armed, again, to expel murderers, when Israel trained insane right-wing Christians called the Phalangist militia who then murdered some unknown number of refugees in cold blood (debatably between 700-3,500 people).

I still think you're being so "common sense" about it that you're just plain ignoring the facts. GOSH YOU GUYS! STOP FIGHTING!

Pardon my bluntness but I think that's absurd. The goal of our presence should be human rights, not "democracy". Democracy is not that impressive a concept unless you're a Saud, and is a given among people liberated to make their own decision for themselves. It's nothing but a bullshit smokescreen...

No. They've done what we wanted them to. That is my entire point. We aren't going "aw shucks". We're applauding, and we're showing it by increasing the funding. And suggesting that Israel would ever bomb us is, to me, hysterical.

The Zionists who founded Israel befriended anti-Semites, got a bunch of funding from and looked up to them. I'm a Jew (to some extent, and by heritage) who loathes Zionists so don't get it twisted, either--I don't think this about all Jews or even your average Israeli. But the history shows that certain Zionists really in fact loved eugenics, because they wanted "pureblood" Jews. (The racists among them still do. There are non-"pureblood" Jews in Israel who are the majority of its poor.)

i believe in peace.there has always seemed to have been one kind of genocide or another.its all about elitism and your way being the right way and not having tolerance for anything else and thinking those who dont look,act,think,worship the way you do are unhuman,immoral,and dont deserve to live.


even americans now have a ton of elitism their is a large number of people wanting to send illegals out of the country which is just wrong i dont think they account for no where near the amount of crime they say they do sure some may be forced to sell drugs or prostitute to get by because its hard getting a decent job undocumented and for the people who act like oh they take our jobs yadda yadda thats so not true i mean what kind of job can someone get that isnt documented.also i firmly stand for asylum and open borders.

america is like 90 some percent of people who immigrated here or were the descendents of immigrants.

i mean we are all human i am so tired of division.