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"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself."

"I postpone death by living, by suffering, by error, by risking, by giving, by losing."

"I will not be just a tourist in the world of images, just watching images passing by which I cannot live in, make love to, possess as permanent sources of joy and ecstasy. "

-from the goddess that is Anaïs Nin

No I *do* get it, my point is that if Clinton were to win, by offering the VP position to Obama it would give the voters who voted for him at least some belief that they are being represented in another role. As in, it would be better than her completely ignoring him and choosing someone who has supported her. It would allow them to feel that the issues they voted on through Obama would be adressed, maybe not by the President, but at least by someone with the ability to enact the message of 'change' (one I still don't think stands up). It's nothing to do with having a black guy as VP, it's to do with recognising his popularity and that people believe in him.

What I meant by stylised vision of change is that so much reporting is on how the contest between a black man and a woman is monumental/historical etc etc, and in that having both on some 'dream ticket' would stylistically suggest the country is willing to let go of the idea that only a Great White Male can be leader. Whether Hillary or Obama, behind gender and race lines, would be all that different is secondary to whether they appear to be, and appear to listen to the varying identity positions of the American people. That is what would give people the hope to engage with politics more. And that was my point.

I think you're taking what I'm saying the wrong way.

I think the fact that you felt the need to even mention "minority" voters was fucking ridiculous, sorry. That was my real problem.

But I also think he couldn't do much as simply the VP. I mean, my god, the way Hillary is going on about her experience, you would certainly get the impression that a First Lady has more responsibility than a VP. But he can "take the back seat boy, you can have your chance next time around."

And frankly I view Hillary as the status quo and I think we can do better than that.

A side note, I am becoming increasingly disgusted with the baby boomer feminists that are coming out and speaking for her. Especially when they make such a poor attempt to compare sexism with racism. It is the most disgusting bullshit I have ever read and it only confirms my reasons for never jumping on the feminist bandwagon to begin with. Because yes, "iron my shirt" truly compares to "shine my shoes." Some of these chicks need to get kicked in the teeth.

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"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself."

"I postpone death by living, by suffering, by error, by risking, by giving, by losing."

"I will not be just a tourist in the world of images, just watching images passing by which I cannot live in, make love to, possess as permanent sources of joy and ecstasy. "

-from the goddess that is Anaïs Nin

Whether he could do much or not wasn't my point, especially seen as most pundits seem to agree there is little of substance between them. As I said, I meant stylistically (in image, which sadly is what much of politics is about) the people who championed him will at least hope he can make some difference and bring some of the poetic rhetoric he has used to the better of the democratic party and thus America.

As for minority voters, perhaps I used the wrong term or maybe the term has slightly more pejorative meaning over there. I didn't mean any offence. I simply meant the ethnic minority communities and younger generation who have been encouraged to get involved and voted for Obama because they want change and to see a non-white face in prime position won't be completely disenfranchised. Despite his appeal across the board, Obama is still hugely popular (like 8 in 10) with African American voters, and if he loses but is offered the VP position at least that wouldn't be a complete slap in the face to those who dream of racial equality and want desperately to see an African American in the White House.

I know it is hypothetical (so please don't throttle me!) but I still believe that were Obama running with the same slogans and policies but not an African American he wouldn't have received half the press, and his advocation of 'change' would have come under real scrutiny. I think his colour is the black elephant in the room people can't mention but is used (whether intentionally or not) to suggest he is the candidate for change.

It seems everybody had something to cheer about, except maybe Romney.

Hillary won big in California. Hispanics, and Asians came out big for her.

The Kennedy & Kerry endorsements didn't seem to work. They both campaigned hard for Obama in Massachusetts and yet Hillary won it.

The Kennedy clan also campaigned hard for Obama in California but Hillary got over two million votes anyway.

Last night ABC news said Obama's youth vote didn't show up as big as was being expected.

Too many keg parties?

See, I think that's why I don't agree with your views. I think if Obama were a white man, there would be no contest and he would simply win. I am also voting for him and it has shit to do with his race, so the minority comment is more than a little offensive.

His appeal, the whole change thing, is the fact that he goes on and on about how the lobbyists need to get the fuck out of Washington. And unlike Clinton, he doesn't have the "experience" which links him to all the bullshit that every other politician has had. He doesn't have the same dirt overshadowing his career. That is refreshing. That is why so many young people suddenly want to pay attention. He doesn't seem like the same ol same ol. But hey, if you think he's gotten this far because of race, so be it. But that certainly wouldn't explain why Clinton (Bill) was in the same exact position back in 1992. Young people and black people respond to those that are willing to acknowledge and value their existence. But keep blaming it on the race thing.

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"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself."

"I postpone death by living, by suffering, by error, by risking, by giving, by losing."

"I will not be just a tourist in the world of images, just watching images passing by which I cannot live in, make love to, possess as permanent sources of joy and ecstasy. "

-from the goddess that is Anaïs Nin

Yeah, but it's interesting how many white people voted for him. Seems people made a bigger deal out of race than necessary.

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"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself."

"I postpone death by living, by suffering, by error, by risking, by giving, by losing."

"I will not be just a tourist in the world of images, just watching images passing by which I cannot live in, make love to, possess as permanent sources of joy and ecstasy. "

-from the goddess that is Anaïs Nin

Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by "baby boomer" feminists?

For me, one of the determining factors between the two choices is electability. While Clinton won the typically democrat states (CA, NY, & MA... old habits die hard, don't they delegates?) Obama won big in the southern & central states. I think he has a chance in winning some of those states when running against a Republican, whereas Clinton doesn't stand a chance. I've heard democrats say they would rather vote for McCain than Clinton. & Obama would most likely take NY, MA, & CA when put up against a Repbulican anyway.

It refers to first wave feminists. Sufferage to Women's lib.

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He's doing surprisingly well with white men.

Although I think he's the wrong choice for president right now, I'm kind of glad he won in states with largely white populations.

Regardless of what happens the rest of the way. Hillary and Barack did something last night that nobody would have thought possible even ten years ago; a woman and a black man split nearly 15 million democratic votes cast last night. Compare that to the 8 million votes the republicans got. The dems are way more excited about their choices than the Repubs.

Anybody older than your mom!

Agreed. It's an exciting time, no matter how much I don't like that woman (i really really wish she was someone else so I could be more excited lol).

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"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself."

"I postpone death by living, by suffering, by error, by risking, by giving, by losing."

"I will not be just a tourist in the world of images, just watching images passing by which I cannot live in, make love to, possess as permanent sources of joy and ecstasy. "

-from the goddess that is Anaïs Nin

All Hillary would need to do is get the same states Kerry got plus Florida.

Even though it didn't count she did pick up over 800,000 votes in Florida.

That state is very winnable for Hillary.

As for the dems who'd rather vote for McCain than Hillary. The conservatives who are threatening to vote for Hillary rather than McCain should off set it.

I haven't heard any conservatives say they'd vote for her. For Obama, yes, many, but not for Clinton. Interesting. I figured the Republicans hate the Clintons collectively and have been tearing her down since she was first lady. Actually, she mentioned how much Republicans have loathed her since day one in that myspace/mtv thing the other night.
And since McCain did a significantly better job yesterday than his rivals I don't hold his support in much doubt.

that;'s the exact analysis my husband and someone we know (who isn;t at all interested in voting. he's a fascist, but a brilliant man) came up with after last night.

fyi obama actually won super tuesday guys. so clintons sweep of the jewels shows how much people in non democratic states wish to avoid her. i met .... i think it was five people at the precinct in prairie village kansas (suburb of KC) who were republicans or independants but wanted to vote for obama. they said that if hilary gets it they are going to hold their nose and vote for the republican nominee but they didnt like any of those choices.

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the cave mouth shines
by pure force of will
i look down on the world
from the top of this lonesome hill
and you can run, and run some more
from here all the way to singapore
but i will carry you home in my teeth
-mountain goats