but you're a vegetarian anyways, aren't you? so be default you wouldn't be eating foie gras and are therefore against it, right?

and s.s. I know you're mad at me right now and probably have me on ignore, but I would still like to extend the same invitation to you as venus de milo. I was never mad at you. even if I was, I'm always for helping out aspiring vegetarians and vegans. I don't expect you to take me up on this though, so I should just say right now: don't be too hard on yourself or give up even if it's difficult and discouraging at first. just do what you can. that's more than most people do.

haha yesh, that is true

I can't even believe it's still legal over there. even here in the US where we still do things you have outlawed over there, it is illegal in some cities iirc. seems like you guys would have done away with it a long time ago.

i don't know if i can/want to part with milk just yet...

I have to ask: why is it so important for meat-eaters to see every possible angle on the process of getting meat to them? It's almost taken as a given in the veggie debate. It's not like everyone who drinks mineral water from the Scottish Highlands absolutely must be shown how much sheep faeces has been slapping around in it or whatever in order to be an ethical person. Is it so important to see every process of everything ever right back to the source? Or is it just animals?

It seems kinda lame to want to shock or shame people into turning veggie, and I don't have any idea why so many veggies/vegans don't seem capable of just doing their bit and leaving other people to do theirs.

yeah, generally im not the preachy type veggie, nor do i tend to like people who are, but i think the gist of the argument is that if you are prepared to eat meat, you should be fully aware that a certain amount of suffering or whatever was undergone by the animal. essentially there is a divorce for a lot of people between the nice pre packaged meat they eat, and the real life suffering of the animals, its an attempt to reconncet the two. if you are still okay with it after that, then fine, it's your decision, but at least it is an informed one. makes you appreciate it more as well I think. i dont have a problem with people eating meat, even less so if they are informed about it

not every process is linked to an ethical choice. and an ethical choice is best made by a person informed about that process

i eat meat, btw, though not mammalian meat

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she's a haunted house and her windows are broken

dolphins and lizards?

Yeah, there just seems to be some cyclic logic among some, that if you're still prepared to eat meat, you can't possibly have be informed enough about it. Fact is, some of us weigh up the suffering of the animal against the suffering of a human who has to drink soya milk, and come to a different conclusion. Most veggies, to be fair, can deal with this. Some don't seem to be able to.

It's fair enough to want to inform people, but you can actually do that without hunting around for the worst scenes of animal brutality you can find. It's fair enough to expose these brutalities, but it's misleading to use them as an argument against eating meat at all if they are not typical of the industry.

Ultimately, if you really want to inform, that's fine, and if you want to shock, I guess that's fine too. But it's not like someone who doesn't watch a film about chickens being kicked around or whatever can't eat meat without being a hypocrit or immoral or whatever if that's not something they're part of.

yeah, it is a fine line between being preachy and making sure the information is in the public domain, i think it is important people are aware tho. personally, it wasnt seeing a video or anything that made me stop eating meat so i cant comment on how effective it is as a method of persauding people, but i think it would certainly get some sort of reaction

I doubt that it is. Really, I think if one film doesn't change your mind, a 100 more probably won't either. Part of the cyclic logic is that we meaties don't make the connection between sweet little lambikins* and my doner kebab. I don't think many meaties aren't aware that their meat does indeed come from the flesh of animals which were killed in order to feed them. To quote Homer Simpson, "just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand".

* not the gigantic teenage lambs that look like they'd rape your face off soon as look at you which we actually eat

but another fact is that people like you are rare. it is more common that people have chosen not to think about it because they know on some level that it will disturb them. and btw, I sometimes drink soya milk and wouldn't say I suffer for it at all. I never liked the thickness and sliminess of real milk anyway. (and my mom only bought the 2% kind, it's not like I've ever even had whole milk so I'd hate to think about how foul that shit must be). and not all vegetarians drink soy milk, the ovo lacto kind still do dairy.

I haven't actually watched this earthlings video but generally I think it's safe to say that animals raised for food in the US live in conditions that would be described as abuse if they were owned by individuals.

sure, but personally I think confronting that these thing do happen to animals being raised on your behalf- even if it's only once in your life- is not too much to ask in exchange for constantly taking advantage of animals because they are weaker than you are.

although it wasn't a video that made me go vegetarian, I think seeing my dad hang up deer and skin them, etc. definitely had something to do with it, though I didn't put it together at the time. that's why I don't really begrudge the hunters like him. he's in touch with the process and still feels ok with it. maybe it's something to do with his native american roots? and btw, he uses a bow and arrow to kill things too, not just guns. although b & a may be crueler, the fact that my dad is about 1/4 native american and uses a bow and arrow somehow makes me feel like he is more justified, if that makes sense? I'm sure it doesn't, I'm really tired.

I've watched plently of these sort of videos, where they show cow and pigs being tortured and whatnot. But this is the only one that's had a impact on me.
I haven't eaten meat since I saw it. I've wanted to, but every time I look at it or smell it or really think about it I feel sick.
Except fish. Yeah.

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yeah that makes perfect sense, like i said earlier i dont have a problem with people eating meat, especially hunters and what not because they know the ins and outs as it were and have accordingly made a decision. plus they tend to have respect for the animals they kill. my girlfriend's dad is kind of like that, in that he hunts dear, fish and lobster and could pretty happily live off the land. he stills tries to take me hunting with him.

I'm a strict vegetarian and I had this same arguement with some emo lad who was trying to score with me saying "I'm an animal activist. I've been on marches and signed petitions and all sorts". I asked him if he was veggie/vegan and he was like "oo no I couldn't do that" so I was like "whatever..." and walked away.

the film that got me to stop eating meat for several years was koyaanisqatsi. i'm pretty sure the effect was like alex's treatment in clockwork orange, but with philip glass instead of beethoven. actually it was more an aesthetic decision

i know i bang on about it but i'm certain aesthetics and ethics are strongly linked in some primitive part of our brain

I don't think most people are that different from me. Most people in the Western world aren't vegetarians, but most of them ARE aware that meat is indeed made out of animals, Timmy is made of meat, and their whole family is made out of meat. I'm sure there are some that are retarded, but it seems kinda harsh to make out like they all are.

Most people aren't raising their pets for slaughter though. Just sayin'.