Just watching the Paris Hilton episode of South Park, and I'm not suggesting for a minute that she isn't a douchebag, but something about it got me thinking.


There's an argument that doing a lot of the things that are seen as "slutty" or whatever are "empowering" to women. I can see the logic - if men can be sluts, why shouldn't women? - but something about it just doesn't quite feel right.

I'm just wondering how y'all feel about it.

IT'S NEWS BECAUSE I SAW A TV SHOW.

To some degree, it’s a pendulum issue. Feminism in the 70s tended to stay away from sexuality except in terms of violence and abuse (not exclusively, of course, but enough that it was the general tenor). There are any numbers of reasons for this, but one that seems especially pertinent to this conversation is that in the ‘free love’ 60s a lot of women got talked into sex they didn’t want because to not sleep with anyone who asked was considered uptight (I am NOT calling this rape, it’s manipulative and wrong, but not a legal issue). So it was necessary that women feel empowered to be able to say no. Then, that was the feminism status quo, and younger women rebelled against that.

I realize that’s more background than opinion, but just to give some context.

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(I shouldn't try to post when I don't really have time) Oh, and this is probably obvious, but maybe not - before the 60s women weren't really socially allowed to say yes to casual sex if they wanted to.

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Haha, seems like a bit of a leap to think someone who wants you to be able to say "no" wants you to say it all the time! People were dumb in the olden days!


(Kidding, of course. I'm sure someone will still insist that I wasn't though.)


I guess what I'm asking really is, is it justified for women to do things in the name of feminism which, while not uncommon, are still frowned upon in males? I mean, the argument seems to hinge on the old standard "when a man's sleeps around, he's a stud, but when a girl does it she's a whore", but I'd argue that these days that's significantly less true and knowingly irresponsible. (An STD caught in the name of empowerment will still be an STD, after all.)

It's part of a broader thing, I guess. It seems to me like persuading women to be as "bad" as men would be a lot easier than trying to persuade as "good" as women ("bad" and "good" aren't quite what I mean, but I can't really think of anything better), and I'm wondering if that's the reason that that route seems to have been taken.


Interesting. But I mean, presumably if it was okay for a man to say "yes", it was okay for a woman to offer?

It sounds silly, I know, but I don't know how a norm like that gets established otherwise.

Yes, I think that’s a huge factor. Although, you do have to remember that this is a very hotly debated issue within feminism. People refer to the ‘sex wars’ of the 80s.

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I personally don't get it. I encountered this one girl who slept with loads and loads of dudes. I remember her logic clearly being "if men sleep around, they are studs and 'psst' women are sluts" So she never saw her behaviour as wrong but infact empowering and her taking advantage of her sexuality. As I observered her more and more, I didn't see her as a strong woman, I saw her as a chick with really low self esteem.

People are under the pretence that two wrong's make a right. Both arent exactly "right" but when one sex does it and we cant change it, we change ourselves to beat them at their own game. Is Female chauvenism social progress or regression to the objectification of females? People who are objectified are often not taken seriously in society either mind you......

I mean not to sound like Mother Teresea, but how strong and powerful does it make you to lie on yr back with yr legs open? Any chick can do this. I say challange a man's mind and then there is a real threat.

I've already rambleda bit about this topic here, but to sum up what I said- now women/girls are expected to sleep around, which to me is probably just as bad as being expected not to sleep around. Either way you are acting on society's expectations of your gender.
Do men have the same problem, though?

But I really don't mind paris hilton.

Regardless of self-esteem, it seems to me like it's cart-before-horse logic*. It seems to very rarely be quoted, especially nowadays, by people who aren't - to use a provocative term - "whorish" anyway. And about "using your sexuality"; I don't know that that's ever been okay for men to use their sexuality, or even possible. I certainly have no idea what it would involve, but maybe I'm "thinking inside the box", so to speak. Even as a gay guy, I don't really see that I should or could get free stuff just by flirting with someone.

*there's a flashy and/or foreign term for that that I can't remember right now

I'm not necessarily saying this isn't the case, but by whom?

Heh. Fraiser Crane said “It’s impossible for men to use sex to get what we want! Sex is what we want!”

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other women, I know all too well.

Interesting. It makes sense that men would listen to the two sides of the argument and choose the one where women are more likely to sleep with them...

...except that, from my experience at least, it's mostly men who dislike the idea of women being "slutty", whether it's in the name of empowerment or not. That's not to say there haven't been exceptions, but generally, men aren't exactly "turned on" by it, any more than I'd imagine women are turned on by men who are like that.

(I'm sorry if I've misread your point here. I get the feeling after posting that that I may have.)

Oh, and incidentally, I'm sure you're aware of this, but your sig is a misquote. It doesn't matter if you don't care though.

I'm speaking from personal experience with various encounters and from the experience my female friends have had. It comes from both men and women we meet. So perhaps I'm speaking only on micro-level terms.
Ok I admit I;m also speaking of what I've seen on TEEVEE so there's the macro.

Does this answer the question? It may not, but I can't tell right now because of workworkwork.

ps= the tittyfuck in your sig really adds a little something to every one of your replies in this thread.

ill ignore your cheap aroma and your little bo peep diploma, Ill just put you in a coma with some dirty love.

Ophiel gets 100000 kudos indie points for even knowing the original, too bad its not short and as snappy as mine.

Haha, like it, god I miss that show.

You see my point though. It would make logical sense for gay guys to use men's desire for sex for non-sexual gain, but I don't really see it that often, certainly not in the really blatant way that women use it (and I mean in gay environments, btw).

I can see the logic behind it.

• We must overthrow the "I bought you a drink, thus you owe me a fuck" mentality.
• How about we just refuse to let men buy us drinks, that way they know our sexuality is not something to be bought and sold? We could extend this ot not letting them buy us gifts constantly as well.
• ...
• ...
• ...
• That sounds shit on so many levels. Let's just take the free stuff and then fuck them off afterwards. EMPOWERMENTCORE!

Not that I'm saying there's anything illogical at work. But anyone who does the above is a cunt. A feminist cunt, but a cunt nonetheless.

Um, sorta, in that I guess we can't expect to have had exactly the same experience. It's just that it's not been my own. I can't really think of any men I know that would want, nay expect, a girl to sleep around, beyond the superficial level of wanting them to sleep around with them personally. I don't really know many women who do either. Most people I know are pretty indifferent but err on the side of keeping your legs shut.

The media is, of course, a whole other thing. They want people to be sleeping around, because people sleeping around sells more magazines than abstenance. I don't know what the ratio of men-to-women working for men's and women's magazines respectively is, but even if it's fairly 50-50, there's a fairly wide tradition that they want to indicate that men should expect sluttiness from women, and that women should expect total subservience in exchange for a few simple sex tricks now and then from men. But that's not because they want the world to actually be like that. It's because they want men and women to constantly feel frustrated sexually - because sexually frustrated people buy their magazines!

Yay! For a minute there I was considering changing it. Not now though