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03-13-2007, 02:14 PM
|  | moz angeles | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: nyc
Posts: 6,145
| | | That's easy to say, but it isn't easy to do. Imagine having to move your entire life elsewhere when you don't have the means/skills to do so. It is rather easy for us to say...hey, you, entire village who have been living there since the damn of time, move so baby seals can live. It doesn't work that way. There are too many external factors to consider and most successful work is done when people in surrounding areas are included in decisions, not cast aside as monsters. But continue being outraged at people who really, if they could, would be in posh jobs not killing seals.
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"We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard-working, very patriotic, very pro-America areas of this great nation," she told the crowd. |
03-13-2007, 02:23 PM
| | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,651
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by pablita  That's easy to say, but it isn't easy to do. Imagine having to move your entire life elsewhere when you don't have the means/skills to do so. It is rather easy for us to say...hey, you, entire village who have been living there since the damn of time, move so baby seals can live. It doesn't work that way. There are too many external factors to consider and most successful work is done when people in surrounding areas are included in decisions, not cast aside as monsters. But continue being outraged at people who really, if they could, would be in posh jobs not killing seals. | Well, I don't know if this is an accurate comparison, since I'm not familiar with their living conditions there. But people with 'no means' come here (America) from Cuba, Mexico & other impoverished countries all the time & they come here with nothing & turn it into something. So the whole 'they have no means' thing, I don't know how much I can buy into that....? |
03-13-2007, 02:24 PM
| | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: winnipeg
Posts: 741
| | | ya, i think you have to understand some of the mechanics of living and growing up in northern canada to understand why it's important to thier livelihood. it's really hard on the people that live there, but it's A LOT harder for them other places. i know for a fact that in my city, it's much harder to get a job if you are from a northern community due to the fact that a lot of skills required for a job aren't aquired. they can trap, hunt, fish, cook and do crafts like a mutha, but...any real people skills and work skills aren't something that they need in the north.
like...northern communities are a lot further behind then then..everywhere else. most of them don't have any transportation in and out of the town durning summer months, and some even during winter months. |
03-13-2007, 02:27 PM
| | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: winnipeg
Posts: 741
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygirl Well, I don't know if this is an accurate comparison, | it's not. |
03-13-2007, 02:28 PM
| | moz angeles | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: nyc
Posts: 6,145
| | | That's definitely true. But they're equally persecuted in this country...being an illegal immigrant isnt easy. It is extreme displacement and the positive effects of that move usually take a couple of generations to show up. All I am saying is that, in order to be effective activists, the answer is not to villanize working people who are trying to get by. Effective methods, such as with deforestation, are...for example...natural resource management...harvest in a sustainable fashion...Activism is no longer just a field where you can picket and be outraged. Be smarter. See the other side. You might learn a thing or two.
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"We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard-working, very patriotic, very pro-America areas of this great nation," she told the crowd. |
03-13-2007, 02:29 PM
| | moz angeles | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: nyc
Posts: 6,145
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by *k8* ya, i think you have to understand some of the mechanics of living and growing up in northern canada to understand why it's important to thier livelihood. it's really hard on the people that live there, but it's A LOT harder for them other places. i know for a fact that in my city, it's much harder to get a job if you are from a northern community due to the fact that a lot of skills required for a job aren't aquired. they can trap, hunt, fish, cook and do crafts like a mutha, but...any real people skills and work skills aren't something that they need in the north.
like...northern communities are a lot further behind then then..everywhere else. most of them don't have any transportation in and out of the town durning summer months, and some even during winter months. | Thank you. Yeah, she was in a remote area in Canada working for a non-profit organization. She came in with all these ideals, saw the reality of the situation, and began to think differently of how we deal with these issues exactly...and why do they exist in the first place?
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"We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard-working, very patriotic, very pro-America areas of this great nation," she told the crowd. |
03-13-2007, 02:33 PM
| | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,651
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by pablita That's definitely true. But they're equally persecuted in this country...being an illegal immigrant isnt easy. It is extreme displacement and the positive effects of that move usually take a couple of generations to show up. All I am saying is that, in order to be effective activists, the answer is not to villanize working people who are trying to get by. Effective methods, such as with deforestation, are...for example...natural resource management...harvest in a sustainable fashion...Activism is no longer just a field where you can picket and be outraged. Be smarter. See the other side. You might learn a thing or two. | Well, I have learned from you, that it's a community up there that does this. I have always been under the impression it is 'hunters' (for lack of a better word) that make the trek up there to beat some seals to death all in the name of greed. |
03-13-2007, 03:29 PM
|  | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: UK
Posts: 2,808
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by pablita You're being very unreasonable. You wouldn't be a good at conservation. It only works when people's needs are met...not so wildly disregarded. | We're talking about innocent wild animals being brutally murdered and I'm being unreasonable?!
I hate when people try to justify these acts of savagery with "you wouldn't understand". We have it over here, when the fox-bothering lobby try to make out it's all trendy townies who oppose deliberate cruelty to sentient mammals (and as I love to point out, I'm from a rural area with a hunt. It's still disgusting). You're only allowed to be against something if you were born into it yourself? If you have a vested interest in keeping it going? Hmm yes that sounds conducive to change for the better. |
03-13-2007, 03:34 PM
|  | Woman Talking to Death | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 3,234
| | | You can be against anything you want, what she was talking about was practical methods for stopping it.
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We are sorry, the mind you have reached is not a working mind.
Please hang up and die again.
Please hang up,
And die again. |
03-13-2007, 06:32 PM
| | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: winnipeg
Posts: 741
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by lilybett I hate when people try to justify these acts of savagery with "you wouldn't understand". We have it over here, |
no, it's impossible to understand unless you live IN a northern community. i live in canada, in one of the coldest parts at that, and i'm pretty southern, they are completely isolated. depedning on how far north you are, you don't have a phone. cable is non existant. no roads in, no roads out, in the summer 24 hours of sun, in the winter 24 hours of dark, -70 C temperatures without windchill. like...you dont' understand how these communities work. most of the work up there involves trapping and hunting.
i wish i could find some good links to help you understand. but i can't seem to find any good ones. |
03-13-2007, 06:49 PM
| | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: UK
Posts: 2,808
| | And I'm sure you don't understand how people trafficking works, but that doesn't stop you seeing it's bad and wrong and inexcusable?! It's a way of life to some people...I bet loads of people who make their money off human misery have families to support...don't make it right or acceptable does it? I wish I could find a link to help you understand!  |
03-13-2007, 06:58 PM
| | Woman Talking to Death | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 3,234
| | | The point that people are trying to make, or at least that I am, is that the best way to end it would be to be able to offer options.
__________________
We are sorry, the mind you have reached is not a working mind.
Please hang up and die again.
Please hang up,
And die again. |
03-13-2007, 07:57 PM
| | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: UK
Posts: 2,808
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildwoman The point that people are trying to make, or at least that I am, is that the best way to end it would be to be able to offer options. | Well, like wot?  |
03-13-2007, 08:28 PM
|  | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 6,308
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by pablita You're being very unreasonable. You wouldn't be a good at conservation. It only works when people's needs are met...not so wildly disregarded. | The hunt has nothing to do with conservation. Its about business, nothing more.
According to the Humane Society of The US, the EU is considering a ban on products that come from the hunt. |
03-14-2007, 08:28 AM
| | Woman Talking to Death | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 3,234
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by lilybett Well, like wot? | How about the same educational opportunities as other Canadians? I'm not up enough on the whole situation to get much more specific, but as a generality, that seems like a good place to start.
__________________
We are sorry, the mind you have reached is not a working mind.
Please hang up and die again.
Please hang up,
And die again. |
03-14-2007, 05:51 PM
| | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 606
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by pablita Actually, speaking to a friend who worked in an area where they club seals, it's the only way a lot of these people in remote areas make a livelihood. They can earn thousands just this one time of the year...I don't know. No one likes to see dead seals, but people have to live. Conservation/awareness does not work if all factors aren't considered. | Some of that is true, but there have been other ways suggested to the government, other industries planned by companies, they say they will move in and make lots of jobs available if the hunt is stopped and it's possible the governments have decided they don't want them. I don't know how true this is, but it's part of the argument. |
03-14-2007, 05:57 PM
| | Registered Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 606
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by vegyrex The hunt has nothing to do with conservation. Its about business, nothing more.
According to the Humane Society of The US, the EU is considering a ban on products that come from the hunt. | They are indeed.
Look:
Since last year-
* Belgium has just passed the
first national ban on (all) seal derived products in the EU!
* Labour put it on their agenda for a ban, last year a ban was passed in quite a few European countries proving that the pressure is working!!
* There's only really Canada and Norway left that use the meat and pelts!
* The European Parliament issued a written declaration calling for a
ban on the import, export and sale of harp and hooded seal products.
* The Italian Parliament temporarily suspended the import of sealskins
and seal derived products. A legislative proposal to prohibit the
commerce in seal products has also been announced.
* The German Parliament voted unanimously on a motion to ban the import
of seal products. The motion calls on the government to work towards an
EU-wide ban and to implement a temporary ban in Germany until a
European ban is passed.
* Mexico banned the import and export of all marine mammals (including
seals) and their derived products.
Petitions: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/236982184 http://www.hsus.org/protect_seals.html
Pass the word!  |
03-14-2007, 06:44 PM
|  | whirling dervisher | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Spin me
Posts: 2,166
| | | Can we discuss the moral aspects of "killing" (see S&P)
Does it matter whether we are talking baby seals, adult seals, or humans? What can we do about "killing"? Who kills and what right do we have to impose our value system on others? Isn't it the right of every individual to make a choice what they want to wear, or eat, or do to survive in this competitve world driven my natural selection? |
03-14-2007, 06:50 PM
|  | Occam's chainsaw | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: goin down in a blaze of glory
Posts: 7,072
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophia_ Can we discuss the moral aspects of "killing" (see S&P)
Does it matter whether we are talking baby seals, adult seals, or humans? What can we do about "killing"? Who kills and what right do we have to impose our value system on others? Isn't it the right of every individual to make a choice what they want to wear, or eat, or do to survive in this competitve world driven my natural selection? | well if I wanted to wear jackets made out of human skin, my guess is you'd have a pretty strong objection to it (and you'd be justified in that) so to some extent, the answer to your question is 'no'. | |
