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  #1  
Old 03-06-2007, 04:54 PM
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mind reading machines, not bullshit.

Scientists Try to Read Minds for Intent
By MARIA CHENG
AP
BERLIN (March 6) - At a laboratory in Germany, volunteers slide into a donut-shaped MRI machine and perform simple tasks, such as deciding whether to add or subtract two numbers, or choosing which of two buttons to press. They have no inkling that scientists in the next room are trying to read their minds - using a brain scan to figure out their intention before it is turned into action.


"It's really weird," experiment subject Tanja Steinbach said. "But since I know they're only able to do this if they have certain machines, I'm not worried that everybody else on the street can read my mind."

Talk About It: Post Thoughts

In the past, scientists had been able to detect decisions about making physical movements before those movements appeared. But researchers at Berlin's Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience claim they have now, for the first time, identified people's decisions about how they would later do a high-level mental activity - in this case, adding versus subtracting.

While still in its initial stages, the techniques may eventually have wide-ranging implications for everything from criminal interrogations to airline security checks. And that alarms some ethicists who fear the technology could one day be abused by authorities, marketers, or employers.

Tanja Steinbach, a 21-year-old student in Leipzig who participated in the experiment, found it a bit spooky but wasn't overly concerned about the civil liberties implications.

"It's really weird," she said. "But since I know they're only able to do this if they have certain machines, I'm not worried that everybody else on the street can read my mind."

Researchers have long used MRI machines to identify different types of brain activity, and scientists in the United States have recently developed brain scans designed for lie detection.

But outside experts say the work led by Dr. John-Dylan Haynes at the Bernstein Center is groundbreaking.

"The fact that we can determine what intention a person is holding in their mind pushes the level of our understanding of subjective thought to a whole new level," said Dr. Paul Wolpe, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania, who was not connected to the study.

The research, which began in July 2005, has been of limited scope: only 21 people have been tested so far. And the 71 percent accuracy rate is only about 20 percent more successful than random selection.


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"Haynes' experiment strikes at the heart of how good we will get at predicting behaviors," said Dr. Todd Braver, an associate professor in the department of psychology at Washington University, who was not connected with the research.

"The barriers that we assumed existed in reading our minds keep getting breached."

In one study, participants were told to decide whether to add or subtract two numbers a few seconds before the numbers were flashed on a screen. In the interim, a computer captured images of their brain waves to predict the subject's decision - with one pattern suggesting addition, and another subtraction.

Haynes' team began its research by trying to identify which part of the mind was storing intentions. They discovered it was found in the prefrontal cortex region by scanning the brain to look for bursts of activity when subjects were given choices.

Then they went about studying which type of patterns were associated with different intentions.

"If you knew which thought signatures to look for, you could theoretically predict in more detail what people were going to do in the future," said Haynes.

For the moment, reading minds is a cumbersome process and there is no chance scientists could spy on decision-making surreptitiously. Haynes' studies focus on people who choose between just two alternatives, not the infinite number present in everyday life.

But scientists are making enough progress to make ethicists nervous, since the research has already progressed from identifying the regions of the brain where certain thoughts occur to identifying the very content of those thoughts.

"These technologies, for the first time, give us a real possibility of going straight to the source to see what somebody is thinking or feeling, without them having any ability to stop us," said Dr. Hank Greely, director of Stanford University's Center for Law and the Biosciences.

"The concept of keeping your thoughts private could be profoundly altered in the future," he said.

Civil libertarians are concerned that mind-reading technology may fit into a trend of pre-emptive security measures in which authorities could take action against individuals before they commit a crime - a scenario explored in the 2002 science fiction film "Minority Report."

Already, Britain is creating a national DNA database that would allow authorities to track people with violent predispositions. In addition, the government has also floated the idea of locking up people with personality disorders that could lead to criminal behavior.

"We need to start thinking about how far we are going to allow these technologies to be used," said Wolpe.

Despite the fears, Haynes believes his research has more benign practical applications.

For example, he says it will contribute to the development of machines already in existence that respond to brain signals and allow the paralyzed to change TV channels, surf the Internet, and operate small robotic devices.

For now, the practical applications of Haynes' research are years if not decades away.

"We are making the first steps in reading out what the specific contents of people's thoughts are by trying to understand the language of the brain," Haynes said. "But it's not like we are going to have a machine tomorrow."

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles...00010000000001

what do you think? i dont think its harful at teh moment because it isnt portable or easily hidden on a person, or even quick. and really, i think it could lead to breakthrus in technology with biotechs and stuff.
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and laugh about it all you want. you wont be laughing when my friends dos the fuck out of your hard drive.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:02 PM
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I guess it's the same as with Einstein and the atom bomb. Part of these people's brain will inevitably end up rueing the day they came up with this stuff, but it won't be their fault if we let some asshole make a brainray of doom or whatevs with it. There are no things man was not meant to know.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:07 PM
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just to elaborate a bit... ON MY OWN OPINIONS ALONE. i sometimes forget how belligerent this forum can get over the stupidest things.

honestly now, with todays surveillance technology and stuff, how much more intrusive would mind reading tech be? not much considering i dont care what people know i think, i say it most times anyway. i would rather not have someone record me in the shower or changing or something equally as private to me. plus i truly dont believe that thoughts could ever be used as evidence to convict or suppress a persons freedoms. (please dont start a debate on "freedoms", i mean it in the sense of being imprisoned or restricted in any way by a person or group.)
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:09 PM
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You think it's a drag waiting through Airport lineups now? Just wait until one of these things is looming at every safety checkpoint, bank and government office.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staticsindy
just to elaborate a bit... ON MY OWN OPINIONS ALONE. i sometimes forget how belligerent this forum can get over the stupidest things.

honestly now, with todays surveillance technology and stuff, how much more intrusive would mind reading tech be? not much considering i dont care what people know i think, i say it most times anyway. i would rather not have someone record me in the shower or changing or something equally as private to me. plus i truly dont believe that thoughts could ever be used as evidence to convict or suppress a persons freedoms. (please dont start a debate on "freedoms", i mean it in the sense of being imprisoned or restricted in any way by a person or group.)
To be honest, in a lot of ways it'd be better if the thought-police actually could accurately read people's minds. At the moment they just try to, without the means to do it, and you end up with shit like racial profiling.

As for thoughts being used as evidence, be aware that at one time tape recordings weren't admissable evidence.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ophiel Ophiuci
To be honest, in a lot of ways it'd be better if the thought-police actually could accurately read people's minds. At the moment they just try to, without the means to do it, and you end up with shit like racial profiling.
Yer teetering precariously on the pre-crime fence there, bud. Where's luftwaffles and his rant about speeding tickets again? That was a good one.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:23 PM
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as far as i know they still arent here. did that change/when? the reason they arent is because they are too easily changed, same with videos once the editing software became common.
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and laugh about it all you want. you wont be laughing when my friends dos the fuck out of your hard drive.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:24 PM
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and, even confessions, if shown to be made under duress, are thrown out of court.
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and laugh about it all you want. you wont be laughing when my friends dos the fuck out of your hard drive.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Fury
Yer teetering precariously on the pre-crime fence there, bud. Where's luftwaffles and his rant about speeding tickets again? That was a good one.

Luftwaffe's rants about how legitimate and well-meaning charities are all idiots because they use grammar which can be misinterpretted were much better.

Oh wait, did I say "better"?

I meant "more retarded".



But yeah, the thing about pre-crime is, it's fine if it actually works. You saw Minority Report, right? They have to have the pre-crime system go wrong in order to make it a bad thing. If it doesn't go wrong, there's no real argument against it
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staticsindy
as far as i know they still arent here. did that change/when? the reason they arent is because they are too easily changed, same with videos once the editing software became common.

I don't know, wasn't Nixon impeached on the basis of recordings? I thought that was when it changed, but I might be wrong. I'm pretty sure they're admissable here, but maybe not.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophiel Ophiuci
They have to have the pre-crime system go wrong in order to make it a bad thing. If it doesn't go wrong, there's no real argument against it
How clever!

You know, I never realised it till just now but by adding "if it doesn't go wrong" onto it, you can make ANY THEORY CREDIBLE!!!

edit:

and with luftwaffle i was just referring to the fact that he claimed speeding tickets and pre-crime were of similar ilk.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:49 PM
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I don't know, wasn't Nixon impeached on the basis of recordings? I thought that was when it changed, but I might be wrong. I'm pretty sure they're admissable here, but maybe not.
i think they used that in the hearings to see if he should be impeached or not. that doesnt make them admissable as evidence against him in the actual trial. he resigned before the verdict was reached on that.
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:50 PM
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Oh obv. Communism is based almost entirely on that fact. Ditto anarchism.

To me, the measure of an ideology is not how free or happy the people are, but simply how large a percentage of the society in question can disagree with it before it starts to crumble. Capitalism ranks pretty highly, with anarchism somewhere in the 0.001%s
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by staticsindy
i think they used that in the hearings to see if he should be impeached or not. that doesnt make them admissable as evidence against him in the actual trial. he resigned before the verdict was reached on that.

Ah, my bad. I don't know then, maybe they still are inadmissable. What about photographs?
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Old 03-06-2007, 05:57 PM
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not completely sure. i think if its by a pro for that purpose only, like crime scene photos and stuff, they are. dont know about amatuers or random ones and im pretty sure there is an easy way to tell if theyve been tampered with when examined by a pro. this is all shit i learned years and years ago in A criminal justice class so god knows if im remembering right or if its changed since.
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Old 03-06-2007, 06:00 PM
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Ah, my bad. I don't know then, maybe they still are inadmissable. What about photographs?
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Old 03-06-2007, 06:16 PM
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Exactly.
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Old 03-07-2007, 03:53 AM
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