I couldn't make a title that didn't sound horribly morbid. Apologies.

Anyway, I followed a link in Thumperlyn's sig, and, taking the political agenda out of the equation for the moment, the video it showed me made me think: if you had an abortion and the foetus was still alive when they yanked it out, would you not be mightily pissed off? If anything, that video made me think they should really be using more drugs/monitoring the foetus to make sure it's fucking dead first? For one, it would save a WHOLE lot of ethical debate.

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might make the ethical debate more problematic, as you'd actually be willfully "killing" the foetus, rather than having it "die" as a side effect of the procedure. which i think is how they view things now, the ideas of abortion being all about viability.

i use quotes, not as any statement about the status of the foetus, but just to point out these are contentious definitions

I’m not checking that link at work, but is it about late-term abortions? Because those are very rare, and 99.99% of the time they are done because the fetus has medical conditions that can’t be detected earlier, but would have caused them to basically die at birth or shortly afterward. The anti-abortion people like to make it sound like these are done all the time just for kicks.

ETA: But since you were looking for non-political discussion, it’s my understanding that this is the only way late-term abortions can be done.

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The video, which is about 80% text/non-graphic images, mentions abortions at 32 weeks. So yes, late-term.

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So then it's not a mistake, it's the only way it can be done.

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There's no way they can properly kill it while it's still in utero?

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Apparently, not, although I'm neither a doctor nor any kind of expert on the subject. But again, this is a much rarer procedure than anti-choice people want you to think.

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Indeed. From what little i know, abortions after 20 weeks or thereabouts here are only for instances where the foetus has died/will die soon after birth/mother will die.

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thumper is just a bible humper who enjoys scare tactics as a ways of winning over the popular consensus.

the bitch actually knows nothing of what she advocates, except jesus died for her brood of 54.

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¿Dónde está el discotech?

Mmm, yeah. She sent me a rep talking about blahblah the deaths by "safe" abortions given by doctors outnumbers the deaths of girls desperately trying to give one to themselves.
Where would one find a statistic like that? Jesus.com?
Pro lifers may call themselves that but what about the quality of life for women? They were babies once, right? Fetal and all that. What about the rights of a post-fetal person? Being forced to carry out a pregnancy before you're mentally/emotionally ready and able = death of soul.
Can't expect everyone to understand that.

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you'll have to excuse me, i prefer reading the thread after i post

"I mean, they lost both parents. That's just careless." - Zach Braff on orphans
"Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of killing unwanted babies, it's just that the idea of letting women make a decision doesn't sit well with me." - Zach Braff on abortion.
"It's not that I think the Nazis were right, or anything. It's just that, we weren't there, we don't know."
- Zach Braff on the holocaust

i like that she neg repped me something about "being ignorant" when let's be honest.

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¿Dónde está el discotech?

it's called a salt saline solution abortion. it's injected into the amniotic fluid, burning the baby to death. the woman is dilated over a span of days and then delivers a dead baby. it's used any time after 16 weeks. the problem arises when it doesn't sufficiently kill the baby OR someone is incompetent and fails to administer the solution, so a woman is just induced and delivers a baby that is normal and living, but premature. the babies are left to die agonizing deaths (they would have anyway) but they've been born alive, meaning they have a right to life, legally.

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getting tired of the collective orgasm at the public declaration of the word "change"

Dr. Nathanson

also it carries a higher risk to the woman.

edit: i felt the need to come back and edit this post. I don't want people the think that i overlook the damage to the women, cos I don't.
Women are risking so much with this procedure- uterine rupture, cervical damage, and death are not uncommon.

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getting tired of the collective orgasm at the public declaration of the word "change"

Dr. Nathanson

If anyone but Barack wins I'm def. studying abroad. Then staying there.

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you'll have to excuse me, i prefer reading the thread after i post

"I mean, they lost both parents. That's just careless." - Zach Braff on orphans
"Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of killing unwanted babies, it's just that the idea of letting women make a decision doesn't sit well with me." - Zach Braff on abortion.
"It's not that I think the Nazis were right, or anything. It's just that, we weren't there, we don't know."
- Zach Braff on the holocaust

and can i just state how much i love the xtians who make video montages with some rockin' tunes to make their point. and then those who link them as fact. b/c i'm sure as hell going to take news seriously when Amy Grant is singing to me about El Sha Die.

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¿Dónde está el discotech?

I would be pissed off if that happened to me, but your original post is misleading because I thought you were talking about failed pre-24 week abortions. I didn't even know you could get ones after that.

most states have laws against 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions, but not all.

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getting tired of the collective orgasm at the public declaration of the word "change"

Dr. Nathanson

in regards to your selective word choice about barack allowing the murder of babies can we also say that bush and mccain and all those types you vote for hate poor people and poor babies and have no problem letting them die a slower more painful death by denying them access to adequate health care or social programs that provide food and clean housing? isn't that just as arbritrary and inflammatory to say such a thing? all you evangelicals seem to focus on one issue and then cast your vote based on that. you need to broaden your scope a bit more.

and you've probably been on the wic program yourself, so you're delusional if you think they genuinely care about people like you.

I love how we have ONE issue we're discussing in this thread and rather than focus on the ONE issue- not even abortion as a whole- just this one point, and you can't hear me present facts, because you only see the bias you have against me.

Barak Obama was against the Induced Infant Liability Act (similar to the federally passed Born-Alive Infants Protection Act), on the grounds that it might somehow hinder abortion rights (it wouldn't!). So fuck these babies that are being born alive and are strangled, smothered, or left to die in cold bed pans alone...? We don't leave anyone to die that way- most of us wouldn't let an animal die that way if we could help it.
This isn't about abortion as a choice, or being a Christian, or voting for John McCain!
There is no excuse for such a thing.
The CDC estimates 500 are born alive a year, but it's HIGHLY under reported, obviously.

Liberals are so damn afraid of losing their "right" that they allow this to happen without coinsequense, as well as other dispicable things, like the unsanitary conditions of many abortion clinics, and the incompatancy of many doctors performing them.

If you want this "right" so badly, you can't be afraid to stand up and, not just fight us that oppose you, but take the time to research and fix the problems within.

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getting tired of the collective orgasm at the public declaration of the word "change"

Dr. Nathanson